2007 Princeton/UPenn Clover Star Classic

#61
And it's certainly reasonable to accommodate rest (as much as possible) for people doing both pre-champ and champ. So I'll see if we can run the first rounds of standard before the rhythm finals.
 
#62
(very) preliminary schedule:

Standard pre-champ 1/4
Standard champ 1/2
a couple general dances
Standard pre-champ 1/2
Smooth pre-champ final
Standard pre-champ final
a couple general dances
Smooth champ final
Standard champ final
Costume change, general dancing (longer break)
Latin pre-champ 1/4
Rhythm pre-champ final
Latin pre-champ 1/2
a couple general dances
Latin pre-champ final
Rhythm champ final
Latin champ final
Anna, this schedule doesn't seem to account for costume changes between smooth and standard:
apparently men wear something totally different for smooth than for standard (cause they can't do smooth in a tailsuit)
and it is not that easy to put on/take off a tailsuit, so they need some time to change...
 
#63
Yeah, DCDI interleaved smooth and standard but I think their smooth was just one or two couples who didn't wear tails in standard. Anyways this schedule has been completely scrapped, I'm hoping to come up with a new one today for your perusal...thanks for all the feedback!
 

NielsenE

Active Member
#64
You can't plan a schedule around people who choose to dance every freakin' thing. If someone is signed up for everything, they've already basically accepted the fact that they're gonna be dancing their events back to back to back.
I've always thought that people choosing to dance two-levels shouldn't be surprised when they have little or no rest. However, the decision to dance multiple styles should never cause the same lack of rest, but may require efficient (but not breakneck rapid) costume changes.
 

NielsenE

Active Member
#66
What do you think a reasonable time for a costume break is, by the way?
If the changing rooms are close and rather spacious:
10 minutes is the absolute minimum, 15 is probably better.

If you have to walk "far" or if it will be cramped, add 5 minutes per issue.

The Champ level competitors are normally very good about getting everything ready that they can to help give a faster costume change, when they know its going to be quick, but if they have to fight huge crowds it will slow them down tremendously.
 

Joe

Well-Known Member
#67
I've always thought that people choosing to dance two-levels shouldn't be surprised when they have little or no rest. However, the decision to dance multiple styles should never cause the same lack of rest, but may require efficient (but not breakneck rapid) costume changes.
Is it more fair to do one than the other? I mean, is it more fair to allow breaks between styles than breaks between levels?
 

NielsenE

Active Member
#69
Is it more fair to do one than the other? I mean, is it more fair to allow breaks between styles than breaks between levels?
Your question is making me question me opinion from before. I'm no longer 100% sure that they are different. Here are the arguments I've been considering: The first three are primarily (weak) arguments for why choosing cross style registrations shouldn't impact your rest time, while choosing cross level ones can (can not should/must). The final one is a slightly stronger argument, to me, as to why they should be treated the same (and cause a nightmare for the organizers )

1) Expectations: During the collegiate era I grew up with dancing, the vast majority of competitions ran each style as a separate session, with levels run in ascending order within their equal sized rounds. Thus if you chose to dance in two levels you were practically guaranteed to have back-to-back events and no rest between the lower and higher level. While each style stood alone, so you'd have plenty of rest at the expense of being there all day. I haven't been to enough of the NDCA/USA Dance events to know if competitors who get their exposure to ballroom there would have the same expectation. Plus with MIT and Harvard, plus a few other competitions changing to the "Open Session" schedule, this expectation is weakening, at least once you do get to the open levels, so this is a weaker argument than it once was.

2) Repetition: For lack of a better title... In most cases people dancing two levels are dancing the same routine in both (even more true at the open levels than syllabus). This is in opposition to the cross style where competitors are demonstrating something different.

3) Style Fairness: Using one regions less popular style(s) as filler to provide rest breaks for the more popular style(s) ends up further weakening the support for the less popular style over time.


4) Price Fairness: This argument applies equally to cross-level or cross-style. At competitions, especially those like MAC or MIT with an over-restricted number of "blocks" or "events" when compared with a couples "eligible events", all combinations should be treated fairly. People only get to do a small number of events and have carefully chosen the ones they make the most sense for them, all choices are equally valid. At the events with the more "all you can eat" model -- where registrations are not overly constrained, I feel its up to the competitor to self-moderate if they are worried about rest.
 
#70
So we are pretty sure we'll interleave syllabus rhythm with pre-champ and champ standard, starting with the 1/4 of pre-champ standard right after the rhythm quarters. This puts pre-champ standard starting shortly before 8 (but as also, you should be ready to go well in advance) and champ standard starting ~15 minutes later. Altogether open standard will be spread over somewhat under 2 hours (as opposed to ~1 hour), so hopefully this will make it a little bit less of a marathon...

Then we have costume break, both smooth finals, costume break, latin and rhythm interleaved (both with much less overlap between pre-champ and champ than standard has).

We're just running the schedule by the chair of judges before sending out a final announcement about the schedule change. And of course please let me know if you have any concerns or suggestions too.
 

Ithink

Active Member
#71
So now that session starts before 8?! You may want to note that on your website which says 9. We were coming with the idea that we wouldn't have to dance until 9 for pre-champ and champ standard...

As for interleaving: as someone who had to do 5 rounds in a row at MIT last year, I'd appreciate breaks but for those who are freaking out about it: it IS possible to dance 5 rounds in a row and dance it fairly well if you do lots of long rounds as practice:) We did!
 
#72
sounds great!

so what time does the ballroom open for warmup and what time can we expect to dance? we thought it was 9...



regarding changing breaks and accomodating rests for people dancing multiple styles:
I think long enough breaks for costume changes are more legitimate than breaks between levels with cross registration, because while it is possible to dance on little rest, it is not possible to dance smooth in a tailsuit, or standard in a latin costume...

if it is not going to be possible to dance multiple styles due absence of changing breaks, then peoepl should know about it in advance.
 
#73
So now that session starts before 8?! You may want to note that on your website which says 9. We were coming with the idea that we wouldn't have to dance until 9 for pre-champ and champ standard...

It was going to start at 9, until many, many standard couples told us they were worried about having breaks (not just people here on DF). As soon as we hear back from the chair of judges we'll change the website and also email all the open competitors...I just thought in the meantime I'd put the plans here in case anyone had any complaints...
 

Meagan

Active Member
#74
Wait I'm confused...are things starting earlier now?? Unfortunately I have prior commitments but was happy with the schedule because it meant I could still dance...Is everything moving up or just some things? Is it possible Latin will be before 9?
 
#75
sounds great!

so what time does the ballroom open for warmup and what time can we expect to dance? we thought it was 9...



regarding changing breaks and accomodating rests for people dancing multiple styles:
I think long enough breaks for costume changes are more legitimate than breaks between levels with cross registration, because while it is possible to dance on little rest, it is not possible to dance smooth in a tailsuit, or standard in a latin costume...

if it is not going to be possible to dance multiple styles due absence of changing breaks, then peoepl should know about it in advance.
The ballroom (i.e. gym) opens at 6. Syllabus rhythm starts at 7, but there will be tons of warmup space. We have the whole gym to ourselves, so there should be 2 open basketball courts for warming up. The first round of pre-champ standard should start about 8 (I will have a 100% confirmed schedule soon).

If starting at 8-ish is a problem, we can always go back to the old schedule...but it sounded like people really wanted more breaks so it seemed like the best thing to do. Now there should be reasonable breaks and ample time for costume changes.

There are also very large and close locker rooms for changing, by the way.
 

Meagan

Active Member
#76
With the new schedule when would all of the sections start approximately? (I thought from what it said on the website that Latin probably wouldn't start before 930 or 10...is this not the case?)
 
#77
Wait I'm confused...are things starting earlier now?? Unfortunately I have prior commitments but was happy with the schedule because it meant I could still dance...Is everything moving up or just some things? Is it possible Latin will be before 9?
As it is now with the new schedule, latin would start at about 10:30 (rhythm shortly after). Smooth starts a bit before 10. The only thing that is really affected is pre-champ and champ standard, which is now a bit before 8 but could be moved back to 9 by sacrificing breaks between rounds.
 

Meagan

Active Member
#78
OK whew...I was wondering how I was going to convince NJ Transit to put another train on the tracks between 6 & 7 just for me :p
 
#80
But if standard is a problem for anyone, please do let me know (and of course we will be sending out an email to everyone and changing the website for those who don't read DF...)
 

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