About Some ECS/Lindy Comparisons and Contrasts

Spitfire

Well-Known Member
#1
I was told in an earlier discussion that most of the moves that I learned in ECS are from Lindy. However, I don't see these same moves being used by the Lindy dancers whom I've observed here. These include arm slides, tuck turns and one where in cross hands using both hands the leader turns himself and then turns the follower, but don't really know the name of this move - but it is not the Pretzel.

In particular the continuous tuck turn where the leader preps the follower to his right three times while moving circular and then either turns or spins her. This is one of my favorite moves of any dance.

Are these from Lindy or are these modified for ECS?
 

DWise1

Well-Known Member
#2
Spitfire said:
In particular the continuous tuck turn where the leader preps the follower to his right three times while moving circular and then either turns or spins her. This is one of my favorite moves of any dance.
Took me a while, but is that the one where you're right hand to right hand and that "continuous tuck" is a series of triple steps in which you tuck her and tap her on the back, then she tucks you and taps you on your back, and again and again until you exit?

I had always thought of that as an ECS move, but then we tend to mix ECS and Lindy and other dances all under the aegis of "Lindy".
 

Spitfire

Well-Known Member
#3
DWise1 said:
Spitfire said:
In particular the continuous tuck turn where the leader preps the follower to his right three times while moving circular and then either turns or spins her. This is one of my favorite moves of any dance.
Took me a while, but is that the one where you're right hand to right hand and that "continuous tuck" is a series of triple steps in which you tuck her and tap her on the back, then she tucks you and taps you on your back, and again and again until you exit?

I had always thought of that as an ECS move, but then we tend to mix ECS and Lindy and other dances all under the aegis of "Lindy".
Yes, that's the one.
 

luh

Active Member
#4
i don't know if i got that right, is that the move where you push your partner a little in the back, and he moves, than he pushs her in the back... and than continues?

if that's the one above which you mean, i can tell you that i never did them in the lindy.

I heard that most of the jitterbug (or ECS if you want to call it), moves are lindy hop originally. I don't know if that is correct. just because there are too many which wouldn't fit the count. ECS is 6 count, and lindy is 8 count.
Okay, you can do belt slide and stuff, but have you ever tried to do table top in the lindy? It didn't work out for me when i tried it. Same with a lot of other moves.
So trying to answer your question: I don't think most moves are from the lindy. I think that a lot of them were, when ECS was new, because that really came out of lindy, but i guess, there were so many new moves created in the ECS dancing scene, which aren't from the lindy any more.
luh
 

Spitfire

Well-Known Member
#5
luh said:
i don't know if i got that right, is that the move where you push your partner a little in the back, and he moves, than he pushs her in the back... and than continues?
No, at least as I learned it a tap is used and not a push.
 

Spitfire

Well-Known Member
#6
Another of these moves is the one where the leader takes the follower from from his right to his left and back known as the sliding door.
 
#7
It's impossible to say what came from where. A lot of moves are slightly modified from other dances. One person might say, "oh yeah, that's a west coast move" and someone else says, "actually, that's a salsa move".

The real reason you don't see lindy dancers doing moves like the arm slide is (forgive me if I don't say this kindly) because they are not good moves. As in, nobody does them because 1) they don't look good, 2) they are fine for a beginner, but after you pass that phase, you want to drop those moves as fast as you can.

The washing machine move (the tap, tap, tap, tap) is sometimes still done, but some pros/instructors literally beg people to never do that move again. I don't think it's a bad move (when modified creatively) but a lot of people have been discouraged from doing it.

Oh, and tuck turns are done quite frequently.... it's hard to say that people don't do those in Lindy because true lindy hoppers do a blend of everything when they dance - 8 count lindy, 6 count east coast, bal, shag, charleston, etc. When you dance, you might do a little of everything. If lindy hoppers only did lindy, the follows would be spun to death. Therefore, it's necessary to break it up with a little east coast, bal, charleston, etc.

I just don't think you can classify moves as being one dance or the other. For example, how would you classify switches?
 

DWise1

Well-Known Member
#9
Spitfire said:
For those who do Lindy; did any of you learn by going straight into Lindy or by learning basic ECS first?
My route was a bit convoluted, skipping the very first step which was salsa:
Beginning ECS for a few months
then about six months later
beginning and intermediate WCS for about 8 months
then about six months later
Lindy.

The WCS whip and rhythms (for a beginner at any rate, the 6-count and 8-count rhythms of WCS are identical to Lindy) really helped me get a jump-start in Lindy. The beginning ECS I had before just kind of came back, though I had learned the Charleston in the beginning ECS, so I already knew it when it was taught in Lindy. Besides, it was in WCS that I had finally learned to hear and follow the beat, something that I didn't have going for me in ECS.


So to answer your question, I actually went from WCS into Lindy instead of from ECS. If someone were to go straight into Lindy then they would also learn ECS along the way, kind of like by going straight into C++ you also learn C.
 
#10
Two week of east coast and then I started learning lindy. There really isn't much to learn in east coast. A few basic moves and then it's time to move onto the good stuff (lindy, charleston, shag, bal).

Once you get the lindy moves down, then you can revisit your east coast moves and dress them up enough so that no one realizes that you are actually doing an east coast move.

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I don't think that east coast is anything to aspire to. It's a very brief stepping stone to much bigger and better things. And once you get there, you realize how lame most EC really is. It's like the kiddie pool of dance.

[/quote]
 

chachachacat

Well-Known Member
#12
Spitfire said:
luh said:
i don't know if i got that right, is that the move where you push your partner a little in the back, and he moves, than he pushs her in the back... and than continues?
No, at least as I learned it a tap is used and not a push.
Ditto , thank you. Be nice to your partner. :D
 
#13
Spitfire said:
For those who do Lindy; did any of you learn by going straight into Lindy or by learning basic ECS first?
Around here, there is nothing called ECS. We spent our first lindy class doing single steps, and did triples from our second. I have heard that some US folks would call that single step thing "ECS", around here I just think people think that is a sound way to start from a pedagogic point of view.
 

SDsalsaguy

Administrator
Staff member
#14
blue said:
Spitfire said:
For those who do Lindy; did any of you learn by going straight into Lindy or by learning basic ECS first?
Around here, there is nothing called ECS. We spent our first lindy class doing single steps, and did triples from our second. I have heard that some US folks would call that single step thing "ECS", around here I just think people think that is a sound way to start from a pedagogic point of view.
As far as I am aware ECS doesn't really exist as such outside of the U.S. and, more specificly, ECS is actually a ballroom derivative of jitterbug, which is itself a simplification of lindy.

Corrections from any swing scholars are welcome as this is just what I recall having "heard" them say.
 
#15
SDsalsaguy said:
As far as I am aware ECS doesn't really exist as such outside of the U.S.
That is how I have understood it also. Outside US maybe sometimes people teach simplifications similar to ECS, to make it easier for beginner lindy dancers; but then it isn't called ECS.
 

Spitfire

Well-Known Member
#16
I had at first thought that Lindy Hop was a loosely used term to describe swing dancing in general and also that the moves of Lindy were advanced progressions of ECS; I thought it was all part of the same dance. A notion reinforced by the fact that at any Lindy dance I attended ECS was what is taught at the classes just prior.

I was lurking over on Yehoodi awhile back and there was a discussion going on as to whether it is all part of the same dance or different.
 

luh

Active Member
#17
@Spitfire: It doesn't matter too much, if it's a push or a tap in the end..
2. you asked in which way we learned it:
I started out with Jitterbug, or ECS, or whatever it's called. I learned a lot there, all those basic stuff, but cool stuff too.
than in between i learned the charleston (side by side), and again some more jitterbug stuff. Than the lindy came, and we did that, and because if you're new to it, you get dizzy very fast, so i got taught the tandem/running charleston (lead behind follow)
than i learned some shag.

chachachacat: It's not hurting anyone if you give the follow a slight push, and she gives you one after that too. :D It might be just the wrong words i used, I'm not a native english speaker. So there might be a better word to express this thing you do with your hand on the partners back..

genie:
Wow, you are pretty hard with what you say. There isn't much to do in ECS/Jitterbug? Who taught you? There are a LOT of things you can do in Jitterbug! (just to tell you few (without the boring ones): buttspin, scooter, pretzel, titanic, rocket, candle stick, death drop, table top....)
And a good swing dancer in general dances more than just jitterbug anyway.
I love the jitterbug, so i was kind of offended by your post :?
There is another very good thing about the jitterbug:
Even if you do just simple stuff, you start improvising, and that's what you want to do in all swing stuff (shag, bal, charleston, lindy), so it's a very good learner, and it's always nice to get back to that one!
luh
 
#18
Luh- I don't think Genie meant to be harsh or offensive, and, quite frankly, I agree with her.
Let me explain:

I started learning ECS many years ago. Within about 5 months of my first lesson, I knew everything that those who had been teaching me did, and I'd surpassed all the other follows at my school. Within a year of first learning, I was teaching, and had no problem teaching both the lead and follow for any move. So, why was this possible? Well, because, if we're being honest, ECS is really easy!
Seriously, the average dancer can pretty well master all possible moves in ECS in about a year.
The footwork, rhythm, and all the moves are fairly simple. Most the moves you mention didn't actually come from Lindy, but from Western Swing - they're moves that make no reference - whatsoever - to the rhythm of swing music, and just require moving your feet in a consecutive manner, while doing a whole bunch of stuff with your arms. Look at vintage swing clips - you will not see any of those moves (although maybe if you're looking at clips from the '50's, but's a whole different story).

But Lindy requires more study. All "good" moves require keeping with the rhythm, the feel of the dance. There aren't any mindless moves that disregard the music - everything fits.
Now- let me clarify a little, by saying that ECS should follow the same basic principles of technique and musicality that Lindy does, but this is NOT common in practice.
My partner and I regularly teach an intermdiate/advanced Lindy class that focuses primarily on basics. A couple weeks ago we were working with the class on technique for a six-count basic in jockey position, and one of the students asked "So, is this just a different technique for doing this right?" And the answer was "No, this is the right way." He then replied "So doing it this way (being the standard way most students do ECS) is wrong?" And the answer? "Yes! You should always use good technique!"
The point being that many of the "moves" commonly done in ECS become worthless if you don't apply principles of good technique, musicality, connection, momentum, etc.

Okay, so really, I hope you aren't offended by this! It's not intended to be, although I know it sounds somewhat harsh. If you study, and become good at Lindy, you'll understand. :D
 
#19
LindyKeya said:
Luh- I don't think Genie meant to be harsh or offensive, and, quite frankly, I agree with her.
Let me explain:

I started learning ECS many years ago. Within about 5 months of my first lesson, I knew everything that those who had been teaching me did, and I'd surpassed all the other follows at my school. Within a year of first learning, I was teaching, and had no problem teaching both the lead and follow for any move. So, why was this possible? Well, because, if we're being honest, ECS is really easy!

. . .
Okay, so really, I hope you aren't offended by this! It's not intended to be, although I know it sounds somewhat harsh. If you study, and become good at Lindy, you'll understand. :D
So does this mean you don't think anyone can have FUN dancing east coast?
I took some Lindy, didn't like it. Took and am still taking some west coast and love it. Am learning salsa, also some ballroom.
But I still have fun dancing east coast, easy or not!
 
#20
East Coast swing is a ballroom studio derivitive of Lindy Hop. Most moves in ECS are based on Lindy Hop moves. Lindy Hop is not "8 counts" it is however many counts the current move is, 8, 6, 12, 4, 2, even 13. SUre the lindy hop "basic" is an eight count rhythm, but it is a jazz dance, which means that it is goign to push and pull the beat, extending and shortening the counts to play with the music. Improvisation.

Yes there are ECS moves that have since been created that were never part of lindy hop, moves that fit the stylized ballroom form and the looser club form. Some of these new moves are terrible. They are uncreative, they don't swing, they break frame and require a completely different dynamic between partners or a different movement style in your own body. Some are simply awesome.

I was exposed to lindy hop first, but started working on learning ECS before I started working on lindy hop. It took me about a year before I realized that ECS was to limiting in the ballroom form and the club form lacked a uniting element. I gave lindy hop a better look and saw that it had everything i loved about ECS and none of the things I didn't. Now I only do ECS when the "follower" won't follow me if I do anything but.
 

Dance Ads