About Some ECS/Lindy Comparisons and Contrasts

luh

Active Member
#41
bjp22tango said:
I would be interested to know the average age of the posters on this thread. I think someone did a survey here a few months back, and most posters were way under 40. I would guess that most of those were exposed to EC Swing only as a prep course before going into the Lindy Hop which experienced a renaissance about 15-20 years ago, after basically disappearing from the world dance conciousness with the evolution of Jazz music and the introduction of Rock & Roll music.
well than look it up there ;) (btw my age was posted by swingolder in this thread)

One of the posters on this thread stated that EC Swing ignores the rhythm of the music. I am assuming they are referring to 30's and early 40's Swing music which was based on 8 count phrases. Since the EC basic is 6 counts it will be off rhythm for three 8 count phrases.
Well the lindy is an 8 count, but the music actually is a 4 count. So you're just of 2 measures. (which you could still consider off)

I was only born in 1958 so I have to rely on history too, but look at the dancing they did on American Bandstand (if you are old enough to remember it). There might have been a few Lindy Hoppers in there, but when I was growing up I only remember seeing EC Swing.
I have to admit, i can't look at that a history, - born 30 years later.. :D

So EC Swing or Jitterbug was the MAIN form of swing dancing for 40 years before Lindy Hop made its return. Something doesn't stay around for 40 years just because it is easy. It has to be fun, and challenging enough to keep dancers dancing.

To the poster who stated that the average dancer could learn all there was to know about EC Swing in a year, all I can say is :uplaugh: ROFLMAO. MAYBE if they were studying/practicing full time. The same goes for any of the other forms of Swing.
Full ACK

The most intriguing thing about EC Swing is that it can adapt all kinds of different moves into its timing. People who love arm wraps, tucks, ducks, and tunnels can be dancing right beside someone else who likes lots of heel pops and heel toe combinations; and beside someone else who likes spins. Several of Lindy Hops basic moves exist in EC Swing modified to fit the style of music it was danced to, just as the WC Swing whip is modified from the same step.
ooo, how nice, finally someone who can express the understanding of ECS in writing. (some feelings, but wasn't able to put it down - respekt :cheers:

luh
 
#42
luh said:
And there is a lot to reach in ECS! (Even if you obviously never figured out what)

luh
Do me a favor? Please, instead of just telling me that I'm wrong, because my opinion is different than yours, explain, since I am so dumb!
What is there to reach in ECS? Specifics.
 
#43
bjp22tango said:
One of the posters on this thread stated that EC Swing ignores the rhythm of the music. I am assuming they are referring to 30's and early 40's Swing music which was based on 8 count phrases. Since the EC basic is 6 counts it will be off rhythm for three 8 count phrases.
I did not say the entire dance ignores the music, and the 6 count rhythm thing was not what I was speaking of. Think about the most common moves in Social ECS - things along the lines of the pretzel, the tabletop, floor spins. Watch someone who is "good" at ECS do them. They don't even reference an identifiable rhythm - swing or otherwise.

To the poster who stated that the average dancer could learn all there was to know about EC Swing in a year, all I can say is :uplaugh: ROFLMAO. MAYBE if they were studying/practicing full time. The same goes for any of the other forms of Swing.
Seriously, dancing a couple a days a week. Is there some amazing world of ECS, that is remarkably difficult, and contains millions of intriguing great moves that I just have never run into? (I've danced all over the country, and funny, I've not seen anything of this nature).

And to swingolder esp- I'm not trying to tear down your dance or anything, and I don't think less of anyone who thoroughly loves ECS. It's fine. It's a matter of preference.

BUT- please don't try to tell me that ECS is some highly evolved form of dancing with realms and realms of challenging material - because the absolute fact of the matter is that ECS was born as a simplified version of Lindy. :wink:
 

blue

New Member
#44
LindyKeya said:
Do me a favor? Please, instead of just telling me that I'm wrong, because my opinion is different than yours, explain, since I am so dumb!
LindyKeya, you are talking to a 16 year old who loves what he is doing. Are you proud of your tone?

For a moment, I actually believed I was at Yehoodi.
 

luh

Active Member
#46
LindyKeya said:
luh said:
And there is a lot to reach in ECS! (Even if you obviously never figured out what)

luh
Do me a favor? Please, instead of just telling me that I'm wrong, because my opinion is different than yours, explain, since I am so dumb!
What is there to reach in ECS? Specifics.
k, maybe it was not at the right spot where i put it, but anyway: sometimes I'd just love to tell you to read the stuff i write, but since i'm not that way, I'm gonna post it a second time:

The most intriguing thing about EC Swing is that it can adapt all kinds of different moves into its timing. People who love arm wraps, tucks, ducks, and tunnels can be dancing right beside someone else who likes lots of heel pops and heel toe combinations; and beside someone else who likes spins. Several of Lindy Hops basic moves exist in EC Swing modified to fit the style of music it was danced to, just as the WC Swing whip is modified from the
luh

EDIT: blue, what does that have to do with age?
 

SDsalsaguy

Administrator
Staff member
#47
LindyKeya said:
...the absolute fact of the matter is that ECS was born as a simplified version of Lindy. :wink:
Sure, that is a historical fact, so no argument. But the key words there are "was born." That original genesis is in the past and ECS has evolved, both as a social dance and as a competitive American Rhythm ballroom dance. You may not like ECS (I'm not a big fan myself), but that's a far different proposition from saying that because it comes from Lindy it can never be as "good" as it . . . and as if it could ever make sense to compare which dances are as "good" as others.
 

chachachacat

Well-Known Member
#49
luh said:
chachachacat: It's not hurting anyone if you give the follow a slight push, and she gives you one after that too. :D It might be just the wrong words i used, I'm not a native english speaker. So there might be a better word to express this thing you do with your hand on the partners back..
I sympathize completely with a person not speaking in their native tongue. I'm sure I would make a million mistakes in another language.
It's just that I've been poked so hard on this step, that I always emphasize "just a light touch."

:D
 
#50
SDsalsaguy said:
and as if it could ever make sense to compare which dances are as "good" as others.
It makes perfect sense - so long as there's a defined metric of "goodness" being used to compare.
 
#51
Swingolder said:
Comparing east coast to movies such as "Dumb and Dumber" which I don't like either, is rather upsetting.

So it is simple people like simple dances? (I have an MA in History, friends we east coast with include a PhD in Physics, another who teaches college Chemistry, a paralegal, a computer tech, etc.) But I guess I am out of my league on this dance forum.

I am more in agreement with 16 year old Luh, welcome, Luh!
Way to take things out of context. Would you be happier if I compared it to a Martin and Lewis movie? The gist stays the same, it is a simple straightforward lowest common denominator form of humor... that does not mean it isn't funny, on the contrary because it is simple humor nearly everyone gets it, it's just that there is little depth to it. ECS is EXACTLY the same way. The dance is incredibly simple... by design. The music it is danced to is most often rhythmically unsophisticated, without propulsion or tension, and when syncopation is present it is simplistic and predictable. Strangely enough the dance mirrors the music. Go figure.

The fact you like it is in no way a comment on you, your character, your intelligence, or anyone elses. I know high school drop outs who love ECS, I know rocket scientists (literally) who love lindy hop, and more drop-outs who love lindy hop. "Intelligence" (which for the record is not something that can be factored from a person's degree or profession) is not an indicator of what dance someone will like or excell at.
 
#52
bjp22tango said:
One of the posters on this thread stated that EC Swing ignores the rhythm of the music. I am assuming they are referring to 30's and early 40's Swing music which was based on 8 count phrases. Since the EC basic is 6 counts it will be off rhythm for three 8 count phrases.
The time signature between Swing music of the 30's and R&R of the 50's is the same, 4/4. Since ECS is a simplified subset of Lindy Hop, LH contains a plethora of six-count steps as well as eight-count steps. The statement was made without regard to time signature or the count of the basic.

I was only born in 1958 so I have to rely on history too, but look at the dancing they did on American Bandstand (if you are old enough to remember it). There might have been a few Lindy Hoppers in there, but when I was growing up I only remember seeing EC Swing.
Actually when Bandstand was on what you saw was jitterbug not ECS. ECS is a ballroom invention, one never embraced by the kids who were actively a part of the dance scene of the age, but by surbuban kids and middle age people looking to learn how to dance in a safe and sterile environment.

I would say EC Swing or regional variations were the main Swing being danced from the 50's until the early 90's. It was only in the mid 80's that people when looking for the original dancers of the Lindy Hop to recreate the dance.
This is a common misconception so I won't say much more than, lindy hop never died. IT isn't being "recreated" as it is being renewed. That is akin to saying tango died out or salsa/mambo died out. Something not in the mainstream/public eye doesn't mean it has gone away.

So EC Swing or Jitterbug was the MAIN form of swing dancing for 40 years before Lindy Hop made its return. Something doesn't stay around for 40 years just because it is easy. It has to be fun, and challenging enough to keep dancers dancing.
Wrong in so many ways. ECS and jitterbug are not the same. Jitterbug is lindy hop with a different style. The moves are the same, the emphasis is different. Lindy hop never made a "return" it simply resurfaced in the publics eye. ECS is fun, and the amount of challenge it presents is relative thing. ECS doesn't have an active dance community with national or international representation for a reason. It is a subset of ballroom and exists in pocket scenes. The retention rate of dancers who would classify themselves as ECS dancers is incredibely low.

Keep in mind that Lindy Hop probably existed all that time also in isolated pockets, just as West Coast Swing survived in California, but for the general population of the US, let alone the World, it didn't exist.
Er, I guess that depends on what you mean by "isolated pockets". WCS has experienced renewal a few times, but has never died out... then again it was also never a nationwide dance craze. Lindy Hop could have been seen in every major city in the US at anypoint from the end of WWII till yesterday. If it needs to be in movies, on TV and in commercials for it to be considered a living dance some dances have never existed.

To the poster who stated that the average dancer could learn all there was to know about EC Swing in a year, all I can say is :uplaugh: ROFLMAO. MAYBE if they were studying/practicing full time. The same goes for any of the other forms of Swing.
Actually no. Take a look at the various ballroom curriculums. You could easily learn all there is in the curriculum in a year if you simply danced four hours a week. The average person who identifies themselves as a swing dancer these days does almost twice that much.

The most intriguing thing about EC Swing is that it can adapt all kinds of different moves into its timing. People who love arm wraps, tucks, ducks, and tunnels can be dancing right beside someone else who likes lots of heel pops and heel toe combinations; and beside someone else who likes spins. Several of Lindy Hops basic moves exist in EC Swing modified to fit the style of music it was danced to, just as the WC Swing whip is modified from the same step.
Can you say this another way? I'm not sure I'm understanding what you meant, and I don't want to agree or disagree until I have a better idea.
 

chachachacat

Well-Known Member
#53
ECS could be a good starting point, and maybe a good ending point.
I learned Lindy when I was older, but still pretty healthy, and it's LOTS of fun, but definetly, for the young and healthy. It requires a ton of energy!! Oldsters still can have the ECS for fun. Y'all have no idea what it means to lose your health/energy/stamina as a result of illness or aging, although I have seen 80+ going strong.
 
#54
Alias said:
d nice said:
Lindy Hop is not "8 counts" it is however many counts the current move is, 8, 6, 12, 4, 2, even 13.
Hey ... even 13 ... but 13 is not even!

The fundamental unit of swing dance music has a duration of two beats ending on an even beat, then the count duration of a move should be even (that is a multiple of two).

I guess you know what you do and manage it well (for example you can freeze between 13 and 14, and start the next move on 14, that's ok, but I'd say the count is 14 then), but it could mistake some unaware readers.
*sigh*

You sound like Skippy Blair.

Jazz music is all about improvisation, jazz musicians and vocalists split beats all the time starting on even beats and ending on an even beat so they can start on the next odd beat. Dancers can do the same. If the move starts on a 2 and ends on an 8 and the next move starts on a 1 then the previous move was 7 counts long.

Is this the fundamental unit that every move should be danced on? No. Is it something that every dancer can use to purposefully create a unique syncopation when the music calls for it? Yes. Then again my quote intimated as much.
 

luh

Active Member
#56
chachachacat said:
luh said:
chachachacat: It's not hurting anyone if you give the follow a slight push, and she gives you one after that too. :D It might be just the wrong words i used, I'm not a native english speaker. So there might be a better word to express this thing you do with your hand on the partners back..
I sympathize completely with a person not speaking in their native tongue. I'm sure I would make a million mistakes in another language.
It's just that I've been poked so hard on this step, that I always emphasize "just a light touch."

:D
IC, a "burned child". I'll keep that in mind when i dance that one!
:D
luh
 

Spitfire

Well-Known Member
#57
I certainly won't argue that Lindy is a higher level more complex dance then ECS. I only have to observe to notice that. However ECS and even more so, WCS have one advantage in that they can be danced to different types of music where Lindy at least from what I've seen is pretty much relegated to swing and jazz or anything playing that type of rhythm (or am I missing something here?). True, that may not mean much to serious Lindy enthusiasts who are happy and content to keep it that way so this is not meant as a negative, but ECS/WCS are pretty handy if you're at a dance where many different types of music are being played.

Now, I'll admit that I have not done much ECS since I took up WCS a year ago and to an extent I can agree with some of the points mentioned, but not enough to completely discard ECS.

And to think that I was known for being anti-WCS; the people here who know me are quite surprised at my taking it up.

d nice - I was talking to one of the Lindy dancers here who mentioned your name; don't exactly recall, but somethihg to the effect that they or someone was trying to get you to come out either here or to Phoenix for workshops or something? Do you know that I'm talking about?
 
#58
luh said:
well than don't tell me and your students, that THIS is the right way. Tell especially your students, that there are different ways that are correct. Show them, and point out, that there are a lot of wrong ways too, and correct him if neccessary.
The problem is there is only ONE right way... the one with good technique. It doesn't matter how many variations there are if they are well led and well followed they require the same technique or they are a different dance.

For example, if my hand is bouncing around a whole lot out of syunc with my body, that isn't just a "variation" that is just bad technique. If I stomp randomly in a move it isn't a "variation" it is just bad musicality.

Fundamental technique for a dance is used through out the dance, that is what makes it fundamental.
 
#59
luh said:
And I can tell you something:
Every GOOD dancer, will include as many swing dances while he is dancing as possible.
Not even close to being true. Some of the best dancers I know are capable and often will dance an entire song with just one dance. As a matter of fact I consider the need or desire to step outside of a dance to express the music a flaw either in the dancer's knowledge of the dance they were doing, or the flaw in the dance's ability to give breath and depth to the dancers.
 
#60
Spitfire said:
d nice - I was talking to one of the Lindy dancers here who mentioned your name; don't exactly recall, but somethihg to the effect that they or someone was trying to get you to come out either here or to Phoenix for workshops or something? Do you know that I'm talking about?
I'll be in Tuscon teaching a workshop April 23-24th.

All sorts of fun stuff, lindy hop, blues, swing jazz. Come by and say hi.
 

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