About Some ECS/Lindy Comparisons and Contrasts

#61
Spitfire said:
However ECS and even more so, WCS have one advantage in that they can be danced to different types of music where Lindy at least from what I've seen is pretty much relegated to swing and jazz or anything playing that type of rhythm (or am I missing something here?).
I disagree. To me, both ECS and WCS are way more confining than lindy. I don't really know WCS, but I dance to WCS music fairly often - I sort of fake WCS by modifying my lindy. Anything you can ECS to, I would lindy to - primarily because it's just a lot more fun to do lindy than ECS. I've danced lindy to hip-hop, disco, and neo-tango. The reason this is possible is lindy's versatility, large vocabulary, primary focus on the connection, and a strong tradition of (sometimes goofy) improvisation. (It also helps that all this music has swing jazz somewhere in its family tree).

Now, one could argue that doing lindy to music that doesn't swing is detrimental to the dance and the dancer (hi Damon :) ), but to me, versatility is what makes it cool. That being said, my best dances tend to be to the "traditional" lindy music (here the versatility comes in again - the expressiveness of the music and/or the singer, pushing/pulling the beat that Damon talked about, fun breaks.) But don't underestimate the fun of doing lindy to whacky music :)
 
#62
chachachacat said:
ECS could be a good starting point, and maybe a good ending point.
I learned Lindy when I was older, but still pretty healthy, and it's LOTS of fun, but definetly, for the young and healthy. It requires a ton of energy!! Oldsters still can have the ECS for fun. Y'all have no idea what it means to lose your health/energy/stamina as a result of illness or aging, although I have seen 80+ going strong.
Frankie Manning is a hair over 90 and he can outdance me any day of the week. Lindy Hop isn't about fast music, its about the swingin' rhythms. The dance is versatile enough that I can do it at 110 bpm to 310 bpm without having to resort to different dance... its all in the skill and the desire. Most lindy hoppers don't have one or the either to dance to those extremes (or beyond which is possible) but the dance can handle it just fine. The average tempo these days is probably closer to 155.

The natural posture and bounce of the dance is actually far less taxing or wearing on the body than ballroom OR club ECS.
 
#63
dnquark said:
Spitfire said:
However ECS and even more so, WCS have one advantage in that they can be danced to different types of music where Lindy at least from what I've seen is pretty much relegated to swing and jazz or anything playing that type of rhythm (or am I missing something here?).
I disagree. To me, both ECS and WCS are way more confining than lindy. I don't really know WCS, but I dance to WCS music fairly often - I sort of fake WCS by modifying my lindy. Anything you can ECS to, I would lindy to - primarily because it's just a lot more fun to do lindy than ECS. I've danced lindy to hip-hop, disco, and neo-tango. The reason this is possible is lindy's versatility, large vocabulary, primary focus on the connection, and a strong tradition of (sometimes goofy) improvisation. (It also helps that all this music has swing jazz somewhere in its family tree).
It's rather narrow minded for either side to say their dance is more versitile to music options. I've heard someone from every form of partner dance claim there dance can be done to everything.

And they are right, because it happens to be the dance they know and they can adapt it. Lindy dancers will find they can dance lindy to a variety of songs. Westies will claim the same thing. I think the difference in the original statement is that when you go to a lindy event, you are more likely to be listening to older swing/jazz/blues. At an ECS dance there will be some older swing as well as rock and roll. Westie events tend more towards blues and pop. They each have their own feel, but none are exclusively restrictive in their music. When I go out, I am more inclinded to dance WCS as that is what I specialize in, it doesn't mean I can't do another form of swing or even a completely different dance to the same piece.

That said there is music that is a rhumba or is a swing, but when you're out social dancing you should be having fun and doing what works for you even if it means doing a different dance.
 
#64
Your conclusion is certainly right, but I disagree with everything else.

Dances do vary in versatility. In particular, Lindy as the predecessor and progenitor of ECS and WCS is more versatile than either for reasons I discussed. Damon is spot on about the huge tempo range that you cover with Lindy. The only dance that even comes close to covering the 100-300 bpm is the waltz, which can go from, say, 75 to 235+. Sure, adherents of a particular style of dance will maximally adapt what they do to fit the music, but the amount of success differs from dance to dance.

Second, the original claim was, verbatim, that "[WCS and ECS] can be danced to different types of music" [as opposed to nothing but swinging jazz'.
 
#65
dnquark said:
Second, the original claim was, verbatim, that "[WCS and ECS] can be danced to different types of music" [as opposed to nothing but swinging jazz'.
You're perverting the original statement as well.....the orginal statement about lindy and swinging jazz is that it has been Spitfire's personal experience to observe such a fact, not that it is an absolute.

The preceeding comment that WCS and ECS have an advantage (an this is conjecture) is that most people do hear a variety of music at events for both forms of dances while the tendancy is for swinging jazz to be played at lindy events. While lindy may, in fact, be more condusive to a variety of music, it doesn't mean this is actually happening.
 

Spitfire

Well-Known Member
#66
d nice said:
Spitfire said:
d nice - I was talking to one of the Lindy dancers here who mentioned your name; don't exactly recall, but somethihg to the effect that they or someone was trying to get you to come out either here or to Phoenix for workshops or something? Do you know that I'm talking about?
I'll be in Tuscon teaching a workshop April 23-24th.

All sorts of fun stuff, lindy hop, blues, swing jazz. Come by and say hi.
Just might. :wink:

The first I've heard of it; is this going to be at either the Ina Gittings building at the university or a place called the Muse? That's where most of the Lindy classes are done when they are held. And I think the swing dance for that month will be held the night of the 23rd at the Armory Park Senior Center downtown.
 

Spitfire

Well-Known Member
#67
dnquark said:
I've danced lindy to hip-hop, disco, and neo-tango.
You're the first one to tell me this, but have yet to see anyone actually do this. Most of the Lindy dancers I've met wouldn't think of doing so.
 

DWise1

Well-Known Member
#68
Spitfire said:
dnquark said:
I've danced lindy to hip-hop, disco, and neo-tango.
You're the first one to tell me this, but have yet to see anyone actually do this. Most of the Lindy dancers I've met wouldn't think of doing so.
Our instructor and local Lindy promoter tried it for a while. Didn't generate enough interest to keep it going. He called it "Lindy Clubbing" and the half of us on the grayer side of the line could only ask "what's 'clubbing'?" And the purists amongst the other side of the line (and we had some very outspoken and rabid Lindy purists) objected loudly to the very idea.

But still, I agree that it can be quite fun to try to apply a particular dance to different music. Part of playing with it.
 

chachachacat

Well-Known Member
#69
d nice said:
chachachacat said:
ECS could be a good starting point, and maybe a good ending point.
I learned Lindy when I was older, but still pretty healthy, and it's LOTS of fun, but definetly, for the young and healthy. It requires a ton of energy!! Oldsters still can have the ECS for fun. Y'all have no idea what it means to lose your health/energy/stamina as a result of illness or aging, although I have seen 80+ going strong.
Frankie Manning is a hair over 90 and he can outdance me any day of the week. Lindy Hop isn't about fast music, its about the swingin' rhythms. The dance is versatile enough that I can do it at 110 bpm to 310 bpm without having to resort to different dance... its all in the skill and the desire. Most lindy hoppers don't have one or the either to dance to those extremes (or beyond which is possible) but the dance can handle it just fine. The average tempo these days is probably closer to 155.


The natural posture and bounce of the dance is actually far less taxing or wearing on the body than ballroom OR club ECS.
Okay, sorry, I guess I shouldn't speak about what I know so little about, i.e. Lindy Hop. I just had a few lessons from an LA Ballroom pro, and it seemed pretty active and a lot of fun. Heck, I guess all kinds of swing can be taxing if the music is too fast.
Taxing to me, anyway, I have a heart condition, so now I have "old people" considerations. I used to dance for an hour and a half straight!
But, I'd dance with you any day, d nice! :D :kitty:
 
#70
lindykeya said:
If I understand you correctly, we disagree. You cannot actually be good at either (or any) dance and disregard correct rhythm. THe point I was making is that most people who dance ECS do disregard rhythm - which makes them poor dancers of any sort.
I would'a been fine with everything else you said, but you had to drop this. In the 8 years I've been dancing (ballroom, latin, swing, you name it) the beast 'rhytmicus lackus' has appeared upon every single floor I've danced on. And I've danced on a lot of them. To make the generalization that most ECS dancers disregard rhythm is in poor form. I've known 4 year hoppers that couldn't hold a 'one' if it was the only beat you gave them. ECS was not developed to be danced to 30's 40's 8-beats to the bar music. It evolved as the music started changing and new rock and roll rhythms came out. The fact that it 'works' with the majority of big band sound out there is happy functionality.

lindykeya said:
Fair enough, and I've been arguing this last point for years. But, most people, at least in my experience, who dance ECS, do not take a lot of lessons - they learn the basic steps, and never get to a point where they are interested in technique. This has absolutely nothing to do with the teachers, but with the culture involved with ECS and swing dancing in a lot of clubs.
You're right - too a point. ECS was my first dance, and I had a great teacher. From day one I was interested not just in the moves, but in the communication and control that happened bewteen partners. I've never spent a day as an 'arm buster'. But like a fast food line, when you make something available to the masses, they're going to dumb it down. So you cull what you can and get the cream from the top. Lindy is HARD to do right. So is ECS if you want to get picky. We can talk about frame, style, motion, hips, heads, arms, and toes. The fact that it's easier to pick up is why it tends to be more popular with in the clubs. Getting a basic swing out down and decent takes weeks. I can get a girl up and dancing ECS in less than ten minutes. She'll have fun, and she'll get the dance bug. You teach her right, and she'll want to know about form, style, control, frame, etc...she'll want to learn advanced technique and move on to Lindy.

lindykeya said:
The point being that many of the "moves" commonly done in ECS become worthless is you don't apply principles of good technique, musicality, connection, momentum, etc.
And the same goes for absolutely any dance. Try a sugar push with no frame. And then give me a quick stop with some flailing arms. Or how about a tuck turn from closed.

lindykeya said:
The point was - the way the student demonstrated WAS NOT one of the right ways, and the way we were teaching WAS.
Right for who and for what? Even Lindy has its different camps and ways of leading. Some guys like to pull the girl out of the slot on 5, fingers in her back. Others push her with the left hand, letting go on 5. Which is 'right'?

End result: There is nothing wrong with ECS. It has a place and function. There are things that you can do in ECS that you can't touch with Lindy and vice versa. Just like there things in WCS that don't translate to Lindy.

ECS has every right to be on the floor. It's not for people who can't keep a beat or who don't know any better. It's as easy or as difficult as you want it to be.

I'm sorry if this has come off harsh, but I get an allergic reaction to people snubbing other dances. When I moved to this one dance town, I was ostracized by the swingers because I danced ballroom. Nevermind that I'd been swinging back on Boston floors before I ever moved to a 3/4 rhythm.
A time and a place for everything. At the end of the night, alls we did was dance, and their shouldn't be anything wrong with that. ECS, WCS, Salsa, Tango Nuevo, Lindy, or what have you.

Cept for them Country Dances.
:wink:
 
#71
DWise1 said:
Spitfire said:
dnquark said:
I've danced lindy to hip-hop, disco, and neo-tango.
You're the first one to tell me this, but have yet to see anyone actually do this. Most of the Lindy dancers I've met wouldn't think of doing so.
Our instructor and local Lindy promoter tried it for a while. Didn't generate enough interest to keep it going. He called it "Lindy Clubbing" and the half of us on the grayer side of the line could only ask "what's 'clubbing'?" And the purists amongst the other side of the line (and we had some very outspoken and rabid Lindy purists) objected loudly to the very idea.

But still, I agree that it can be quite fun to try to apply a particular dance to different music. Part of playing with it.
LOL. YES! I'm not alone if there is a single other soul out there that shares this idea!

I do a similar thing to the dances out here. I call it 'LindyJack'. And I'll play music that people might not ever associate with Lindy. The idea is that by distracting the dancers and catching them off guard, I'll challenege their creativity and remind them to have fun! Doing something a little out of the norm and trying something new to widen the horizon. Variety is the spice of life!

But alas, as with your town, it isn't as popular with some, so I usually reserve for later in the night.

I'm always on the look out for new tunes though. Anyway I could get in touch with this instructor you speak of so I can compare libraries?


Current favorite tunes:
(for those of you up for some experiementation)

Weezer - Good Life
Chris Isaac - Baby done a bad bad thing
Bran Van 3000 - Montreal, Love Cliche, Everywhere (personal fav)
Bentley Rhythm Aces - This is Carbootechnoodiscotechnobooto (not for the faint of heart. Danceable, I swear, but the seals and kittens tend to throw people)
Dimitri From Paris - Toujours L'amour
Dandy Warhols - Get Off
Overseer - StompBox
White Stripes - Little Room
Blur - Coffe & TV
Beck - Sexx Laws
Semisonic - Completely Pleased
Belle & Sebastian - The state That I am in
 

Spitfire

Well-Known Member
#72
Firephreek said:
DWise1 said:
Spitfire said:
dnquark said:
I've danced lindy to hip-hop, disco, and neo-tango.
You're the first one to tell me this, but have yet to see anyone actually do this. Most of the Lindy dancers I've met wouldn't think of doing so.
Our instructor and local Lindy promoter tried it for a while. Didn't generate enough interest to keep it going. He called it "Lindy Clubbing" and the half of us on the grayer side of the line could only ask "what's 'clubbing'?" And the purists amongst the other side of the line (and we had some very outspoken and rabid Lindy purists) objected loudly to the very idea.

But still, I agree that it can be quite fun to try to apply a particular dance to different music. Part of playing with it.
LOL. YES! I'm not alone if there is a single other soul out there that shares this idea!

I do a similar thing to the dances out here. I call it 'LindyJack'. And I'll play music that people might not ever associate with Lindy. The idea is that by distracting the dancers and catching them off guard, I'll challenege their creativity and remind them to have fun! Doing something a little out of the norm and trying something new to widen the horizon. Variety is the spice of life!

But alas, as with your town, it isn't as popular with some, so I usually reserve for later in the night.

I'm always on the look out for new tunes though. Anyway I could get in touch with this instructor you speak of so I can compare libraries?


Current favorite tunes:
(for those of you up for some experiementation)

Weezer - Good Life
Chris Isaac - Baby done a bad bad thing
Bran Van 3000 - Montreal, Love Cliche, Everywhere (personal fav)
Bentley Rhythm Aces - This is Carbootechnoodiscotechnobooto (not for the faint of heart. Danceable, I swear, but the seals and kittens tend to throw people)
Dimitri From Paris - Toujours L'amour
Dandy Warhols - Get Off
Overseer - StompBox
White Stripes - Little Room
Blur - Coffe & TV
Beck - Sexx Laws
Semisonic - Completely Pleased
Belle & Sebastian - The state That I am in
Stryder, how you doing?
 
#73
Firephreek said:
ECS has every right to be on the floor. It's not for people who can't keep a beat or who don't know any better. It's as easy or as difficult as you want it to be.
...

I'm sorry if this has come off harsh, but I get an allergic reaction to people snubbing other dances.
Amen!

I've spent the last several minutes reading this entire post...very interesting. What came to mind immediately was this - would you want to eat your favorite meal every day? Even if it was prepared by the best chef in the world? I doubt it, you'd get tired of it. That doesn't reduce the quality of it, but the person's taste has changed. That's what I think about ECS. So many of us start learning to dance with this dance, but that's not all we want to 'eat.' Our tastes change, we want something else to go along with it.

I think it's great that everyone is so passionate about 'their' dance. I love WCS, dance it all the time, sometimes nothing else, and it irks me when people are disparaging of it. I've spent a lot of time learning it and find great enjoyment from it. It makes me happy - and that's a very personal thing. But having done that for almost 2 years now, (and certainly no expert) I find myself needing a break from it, wanting to do something different, so I'm learning hustle. I needed a 'taste' of something else. I'm sure when I return to WCS, it will be so much better to me.

If ECS makes you happy and gives you fulfillment, of course that is very personal as well, and you should continue doing it as long as it gives you that feeling. When you find that you want something different, AND YOU WILL, it isn't because you've competely perfected ECS and now it's beneath you. It's just human nature.
 
#74
Firephreek said:
lindykeya said:
The point was - the way the student demonstrated WAS NOT one of the right ways, and the way we were teaching WAS.
Right for who and for what? Even Lindy has its different camps and ways of leading. Some guys like to pull the girl out of the slot on 5, fingers in her back. Others push her with the left hand, letting go on 5. Which is 'right'?
Admittedly there is usually more than one way to do something "correctly," although not always. As my post says, the student was not opting for one of the correct ways. Bad technique is bad technique. Period.
 
#75
d nice said:
luh said:
well than don't tell me and your students, that THIS is the right way. Tell especially your students, that there are different ways that are correct. Show them, and point out, that there are a lot of wrong ways too, and correct him if neccessary.
The problem is there is only ONE right way... the one with good technique. It doesn't matter how many variations there are if they are well led and well followed they require the same technique or they are a different dance.

For example, if my hand is bouncing around a whole lot out of syunc with my body, that isn't just a "variation" that is just bad technique. If I stomp randomly in a move it isn't a "variation" it is just bad musicality.

Fundamental technique for a dance is used through out the dance, that is what makes it fundamental.
Just thought this bore repeating. :D
 
#76
Firephreek said:
lindykeya said:
If I understand you correctly, we disagree. You cannot actually be good at either (or any) dance and disregard correct rhythm. THe point I was making is that most people who dance ECS do disregard rhythm - which makes them poor dancers of any sort.
I would'a been fine with everything else you said, but you had to drop this. In the 8 years I've been dancing (ballroom, latin, swing, you name it) the beast 'rhytmcus lackus' has appeared upon every single floor I've danced on. And I've danced on a lot of them. To make the generalization that most ECS dancers disregard rhythm is in poor form. I've known 4 year hoppers that couldn't hold a 'one' if it was the only beat you gave them. ECS was not developed to be danced to 30's 40's 8-beats to the bar music. It evolved as the music started changing and new rock and roll rhythms came out. The fact that it 'works' with the majority of big band sound out there is happy functionality.
Yes, lots of "dancers" have the 'rhytimicus lackus' problem (Great term, btw), but I would say it is a problem that is exacerbated in ECS, because there are a lot of common moves that seem to have been created by this creature. So, you have those with no rhythm in the first place, and then those who do have some sense of rhythm, but have been taught these moves that don't utilize any regard for the rhythm of the dance and music (and somehow, they either don't notice, or just ignore that fact). I think the latter situation is less common in most other dances.
 

DWise1

Well-Known Member
#77
Firephreek said:
I'm always on the look out for new tunes though. Anyway I could get in touch with this instructor you speak of so I can compare libraries?
shesha@ocswing.com

And sometimes when he's DJ'ing he'll play out-of-genre requests. Like an 80's song (way after my time). Or a salsa.
 
#78
When starting swing dancing, I began with some Ceroc-like modern jive dance. I had one two-hour lesson, and I was social dancing every week for half a year before starting Lindy classes. It took three months of weekly lessons before I could do the same with Lindy.

Why is Lindy so much harder?
One thing is learning the smooth basic footwork. The tripple-steps can be very jumpy in the beginning. But more important is the dynamics of the connection.

In modern jive (as in Ceroc and the like, not ballroom jive, which I hardly know anything about) there's a rocking motion between the couple as welll as between the floor and the dancers. This rocking motion will constantly reinforce the connection between the couple, as you're constantly pushing and pulling on each other.

In Lindy you're required to always keep the connection, even when you're standing still and not moving, or when you're not using the connection to lead/follow. This is much harder to do. And this is also the reason that so many people (me included :oops:) have the bad habit of doing and up down, or a circular motion at the beginning of the lindy turn. It's using the motion to reinforce the connection.

This type of connection is one thing that makes Lindy a very versatile dance. When dancing to different types of music, you can use the patterns and connection learnd in Lindy and adapt your dance almost anything. Something I now and then do when dancing to other music is forgetting about the beat, and just use the melody or song and fit the moves. I don't think you could ever do that with Ceroc or similar.

I am pretty sure a good WCS swing dancer could do this. I don't know about ECS dancers.


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#79
Firephreek said:
ECS was not developed to be danced to 30's 40's 8-beats to the bar music. It evolved as the music started changing and new rock and roll rhythms came out. The fact that it 'works' with the majority of big band sound out there is happy functionality.
Point of order ECS was a dance created for the ballroom. It didn't evolve.
Lindy is HARD to do right. So is ECS if you want to get picky. We can talk about frame, style, motion, hips, heads, arms, and toes. The fact that it's easier to pick up is why it tends to be more popular with in the clubs. Getting a basic swing out down and decent takes weeks. I can get a girl up and dancing ECS in less than ten minutes. She'll have fun, and she'll get the dance bug. You teach her right, and she'll want to know about form, style, control, frame, etc...she'll want to learn advanced technique and move on to Lindy.[/quote]

Actually Lindy Hop is hard to teach, easy to do.

Right for who and for what? Even Lindy has its different camps and ways of leading. Some guys like to pull the girl out of the slot on 5, fingers in her back. Others push her with the left hand, letting go on 5. Which is 'right'?
Neither from the way you describe it. The motion originates with the body, which arm it ends up tranfering to the follow is immaterial.

ECS [is] as easy or as difficult as you want it to be.
No it isn't the is what it is, easy for some hard for others. It can be relativey (to itself) made more complicated or more simple, but the dance is what it is. Now if you are refering to non-syllubus, non-ballroom, jitterbug with all of these statements then I apologize. There is a world of difference though between the two.
 

Spitfire

Well-Known Member
#80
leftfeetnyc said:
blue said:
For a moment, I actually believed I was at Yehoodi.
Good call! And they'd all be in arms claiming ECS is the very basics of Lindy and not a stand-alone dance.
But I am surprised from reading the posts there how many of them also do WCS. I had the impression that lindy dancers hated WCS and vice-versa.
 

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