Analogue is not dead!

sixela

Well-Known Member
#21
You still don't have a clue and you pontificate about things (and people) you don't know anything about. Worse, you're not interested in actually learning anything, just in criticism.

If you think these records should be preserved and never played (not even as PR) then I suggest that instead of complaining about others you invest hard-earned cash in building a collection, digitise it and negotiate with the right holders so that you can publish them.

We'll all be eternally grateful once we get to download the tracks, but until then, I'm not going to waste a single post on this futile argument.
 

jfm

Active Member
#23
Once again I feel like I'm trapped in n Orwellian nightmare. Either ukdancer has applied himself with vim to mastery of doublethink, or his sheer chutzpah is incredible.
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
#24
You still don't have a clue and you pontificate about things (and people) you don't know anything about. Worse, you're not interested in actually learning anything, just in criticism.
In this case I find myself in (non-violent) agreement with UKDancer.

I for one would like to be educated if you think you know the answers
to UKDancer's observations.

The preservation of the music (and data for that matter) has some
importance and a cohesive public and open resource is the best route.
After all exactly what is the point if no-one ever hears the result?
I would have thought that such an endeavour could be a candidate for support
by UNESCO intangible heritage funding, assuming there is some money.

If you think these records should be preserved and never played (not even as PR) then I suggest that instead of complaining about others you invest hard-earned cash in building a collection, digitise it and negotiate with the right holders so that you can publish them.
Once there is a digitised resource of the best possible quality transfers
then those people who have records can by all means play them. In any case,
who are we or anyone else to say whether they should or not? Views about
whether playing them publicly is a gimmick (in my view, it is in today's world)
or not would then be irrelevant. Whilst CDs age and become prone to reading errors,
high bitrate WAV (or losslessly compressed) files can be losslessly copied endlessly
for security.

We'll all be eternally grateful once we get to download the tracks, but until then, I'm not going to waste a single post on this futile argument.
You've lost me!
 

UKDancer

Well-Known Member
#25
The preservation of the music (and data for that matter) has some
importance and a cohesive public and open resource is the best route.
If the record companies would devote a small resource to identifying what masters they have, and then look to a series of further releases to fund their restoration, things would be much improved. It is rather depressing to see that, instead, they dump parts of their current catalogues through the retail channel for almost nothing, so that we can buy releases like the D'Arienzo CD in the 20 Grandes Exitos series for £3.63 + £1.26 P&P:

amazon.co.uk/Inolvidables-RCA-20-Grandes-Exitos/dp/B0000CER80/ref=sr_1_11?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1364371343&sr=1-11

If there are examples of masters having been lost, it is quite possible that private collectors have better copies of commercially released material than the record companies have, and there, an independent organisation could well be the best body to assemble a library of such material, both to preserve it, and to facilitate its release wherever possible.

If release #1 was a 'single' of the the Laurenz/Podesta 1942 version of Flores del Alma, I'd buy it at any sensible price. I'm missing six more of Laurenz's 1937-1944 releases too, but like many collectors, I'd buy them if I could.
 

pygmalion

Well-Known Member
#26
Hmm.

I'm sure there must be a misunderstanding of some sort, because I read the whole thread and don't see what all the fuss is about. I'm very confused. *shrug*

But on topic, let me ask a question because I think most of the players in this thread are Europe-based. Has anyone looked into UK/EU copyright law in this regard? In the US, after a certain period has elapsed, a lot of things, including music, may be considered in the public domain and therefore can be played,copied, distributed without any liability. At least in the US, there are lots of caveats, date restrictions, etc, so you have to be careful. But it certainly is worth looking into if, for example, you have a collection on vinyl that you want to clean up, copy and share.

My two pence. ;)

And re: masters. I don't know who said it but yes. My Mom has been a collector of 78 RPM rhythm and blues recordings for ... 40 years? now. Yes. Often, the issue is that the masters no longer exist. The best you can hope for is a good quality copy that was sold commercially and well preserved.*sigh*
 

sixela

Well-Known Member
#29
In the US, you can thank Disney for this:

the copyright endures for a term of 95 years from the year of its first publication, or a term of 120 years from the year of its creation, whichever expires first.
In practice, as long as Disney has deep pockets, don't expect the copyrights of anything produced after the publication of the first Mickey Mouse cartoon to expire soon ;-).
 

pygmalion

Well-Known Member
#30
I don't know if it's Disney or not, but it's loooong. Just googled. From what I was able to find, the UK is not as bad. The period used to be fifty years, but was extended to 70 years back in 2009, thanks to the record industry lobby. So anything before 1943? (Is that 70 years ago?) should be good.
 

Mr 4 styles

Well-Known Member
#32
The piece in the vid is from the 50s. At lot of time-worn 78rpms and shellacs do not sound that well at all. A friend of mine regularly organizes true analog-analog parties (gramophone-milongas). Speaking frankly, I only can stand it a single hour.
not pertaining to tango music.. back in the 70s and early 80s new artists would give us DJs "disco singles" of songs which where master cut quality one song on a whole LP sized piece of vinyl, deeply grooved. Nothing sounds as good as these yet
 

UKDancer

Well-Known Member
#33
German law makes any music production like a recording, public domain after 50 years.
But note:
In September 2011 the European Union approved a directive which will extend copyright term for sound recordings and performers’ rights in sound recordings from 50 to 70 years. The directive must be implemented into UK law by 1 November 2013.

Additional measures in the Directive include:
  • that record producers set aside 20% of all revenues for a fund for session artists;
  • that if a record label is not commercially releasing a track that is over 50 years old, then the right in the sound recording will cease to exist and performers can request that the rights in the performance revert to them - a 'use it or lose it' clause;
  • alignment of the term of protection for the music and lyrics in a musical composition.

The use it or lose it provisions are interesting, but they only apply to the performers and not to third parties, however well-intentioned.

It is also interesting the the research suggests that the price of commercially available recordings are not different, whether the recording is still in copyright, or not. If that is so, the record companies have no reason to abandon the restoration and commercial release of material where the copyright is about to expire, or has already expired.
 

pygmalion

Well-Known Member
#35
the record companies have no reason to abandon the restoration and commercial release of material where the copyright is about to expire, or has already expired.

True. :cool: I don't know if copyright would be the issue for record companies, though.

From where I'm sitting (and I'm probably wrong) the issues would more likely be the cost of restoration versus the likelihood of financial success of any commercial releases. These recordings would appeal to a niche market, after all. Would it be worth record company's effort to go through the expense of restoring recordings that relatively few people would buy?
 

UKDancer

Well-Known Member
#40
I have lots of CDs that were remastered versions of existing analogue material. In all cases, the (C) & (P) dates printed on the CD inserts are those of the original releases.
 

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