Argentine Tango competitions

#82
These are the finalist dancers from all over Europe?? Crikey!! Just being able to make it onto that stage must indicate a consummate professionalism at work. Yet, at 16 seconds into the third video...the man tries to knock the woman onto her back by kicking her standing leg out from under her....go figure.

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#83
Watching these excellent dancers above; it reminds me of a comment that Jan Kenyon once made about champion competition dancers always taking big steps...or 'all their steps are large'.... I went thru a time questioning myself '..and what's wrong with that?' about the big steps....and then I saw Rick McClarity's pages on dancing the compas;
http://www.tangoandchaos.org/chapt_6school/20countcompas.htm
...and wow, what a difference some small steps can make!! I was instantly converted.
 
#84
Watching these excellent dancers above; it reminds me of a comment that Jan Kenyon once made about champion competition dancers always taking big steps...or 'all their steps are large'.... I went thru a time questioning myself '..and what's wrong with that?' about the big steps....and then I saw Rick McClarity's pages on dancing the compas;
http://www.tangoandchaos.org/chapt_6school/20countcompas.htm
...and wow, what a difference some small steps can make!! I was instantly converted.
Well exactly. I'm afraid I dont understand why couple 60 are the stand out couple. Did they show any musicality? Any double times? About the only thing they did do was resist the urge to dance backwards :)

No I'm going to give the prize to no 47. Clearly the best looking couple. The woman's dress. Wow. And the guy looks a bit like Javier (back in his younger days)
 
#85
Just went back to check. From our initial video only couples 26 and 52 got through. No couple 48. *Sob*

I'm sure half (no, most of it) is looking good. Keep the ugly people off the stage. Never mind actually being able to dance :p
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
#87
Just went back to check. From our initial video only couples 26 and 52 got through. No couple 48. *Sob*

I'm sure half (no, most of it) is looking good. Keep the ugly people off the stage. Never mind actually being able to dance :p
Well, since I LIKE couple 26, I don't think it's ONLY about being attractive people.

(my typing is really bad today... I had to correct every word in that sentence... EVERY word!)

I do wish they'd relax the arm a little... They have a nice looking connection, but that arm makes it look "stagey". (only 2 words in this sentence .. sigh)

However, #52? And not #48? Uh..... :rolleyes:

The video was clearly made by friends of #60, because they follow them whenever possible. I would like to have seen more of the other couples (stop to correct typos including the word "correct" in this sentence... Fingers? Hello? What's up with you today? :confused:)

Liked 47 from what little I got to see.
 
#90
Presumably they look more "intense" than the others - more focussed on the connection and less on "looking good". Whoopee. I cant see much musicality either..
 
#91
Well, since I LIKE couple 26, I don't think it's ONLY about being attractive people.
Well no not ONLY. However it would be nice for the couples to actually look like they're interpreting the music. As I like to say, you're not just dancing to a tango, you're dancing to THIS song.
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
#92
Watching these excellent dancers above; it reminds me of a comment that Jan Kenyon once made about champion competition dancers always taking big steps...or 'all their steps are large'.... I went thru a time questioning myself '..and what's wrong with that?' about the big steps....and then I saw Rick McClarity's pages on dancing the compas;
http://www.tangoandchaos.org/chapt_6school/20countcompas.htm
...and wow, what a difference some small steps can make!! I was instantly converted.
And from now on Rick McGarrey shall be known as Rick McClarity - how apt!
I would side with Janis's comment too and probably disagree with most
people's opinion about the dancers.

In fact I wouldn't join in the judging as a I positively loathe dance competition,
particularly of social dancing. It seems so anti-tango to me.
If the professionals want to compete let them get on with it, they're welcome.

No matter what the public forum, be it a competition or being in front of a camera,
people behave differently and usually not naturally.
TV shows a distorted and distorting view of the World.

In competition inevitably the dancers dance larger and flashier to be noticed.
I don't want to be judged in that way, the only judgement I'm interested in
is that of my partner; the best dances are always with people who don't
judge at all, and that works both ways.
 

tangobro

Active Member
#94
European Tango 2010 - Salon Winners: response to comments

Natasha Petrova, E.T.C. Tango Salon 2010 winner, wrote me the following in response to comments on the Dance Forums, Tango Argentino site:

european tango championship

Dear "Tangobro"! I decided to upload another video after reading the discussion on your site. I think it's wonderful that there are many opinions about how to dance tango salon. Even in Argentin, there is no one on this matter. And I must tell You, that in Russia the majority of fans of tango hold american and european option. We decided to be different.Perhaps that is why we have become champions? Of course, it is not nice to read, that our victory is not deserved.
Nevertheless , it is very useful to know what is bad in my step, because we are going to participate in the Mundial. Thank You. I also wont to tell you, that dancing tango salon is in the first place dancing for themselves, for our feelings and pleasure, not for spectators. I don't object if You will publish my letter on your site. Thank you for attention and opinion and I wish all fans of tango great success, a lot of emotions and pleasure in the tango. Sincerly, Natasha Petrova.
P.S. Sorry for my English.
 
#95
Well I wish them well. I'd be surprised if the judging was really any different in the Mundial competition, so you'd think they should have a good chance.

Are we saying that their victory is not deserved? Well I wasnt. They clearly are competent dancers. No argument there. What I am saying is that I would expect a lot more musicality in a competition like this. Since none of the couples especially impressed me on that front, what are you left with? Looking good? Smoothness of technique? They're half the package, but I'd prefer to see the whole enchilada (to use that lovely American phrase).
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
#97
What I am saying is that I would expect a lot more musicality in a competition like this. Since none of the couples especially impressed me on that front, what are you left with? Looking good? Smoothness of technique? They're half the package, but I'd prefer to see the whole enchilada (to use that lovely American phrase).
Interesting simile here. At first I thought the comparison was a bad one
but on second thoughts . . . like tango seeing an enchilada is not enough.
To "see" the whole enchilada you have to taste it, eat it, experience it.

How can you visually judge salon tango when the essence of salon
is the experience. Admittedly as a dancer you can imagine what
the embrace and the connection might be like but how many times
have you seen someone you think you'd like to dance with only to find
the experience was not quite what you might have expected,
better or worse.
 
#98
How can you visually judge salon tango when the essence of salon is the experience. Admittedly as a dancer you can imagine what the embrace and the connection might be like but ..
Ok, Im glad to get the chance here to chime in with my latest thinking/observations on this topic; Salon tango is NOT Milonguero social dancing and is NOT connection and embrace!:shock: Yes, I'm convinced of this; that Salon is the result of the creeping in of performance tango del escenario and has co-opted the close embrace dance much the same way that Nuevo has done to the traditional....make sense? ...too complicated?

Here is one of the original and best Salon dancers; Chino Perico
:artsy:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzcTCG4cQTA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKV_34J5Ay4

Sure, the dances start with the embrace and connection much as most Nuevo dances do...but this is just to establish their place in history and tradition as being an offspring of the original Argentine tango social dance...and what happens a few steps later? The embrace is broken in favor of something that is SHOWEY...a sophisticated enrosque with offsetting cantilever leg twisting?? where's the embrace and where's the connection?...long gone.:(:(:(

This is where the important distinction has got to be made: Between Social dancing and Performance dancing.!!!
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
#99
Ok, Im glad to get the chance here to chime in with my latest thinking/observations on this topic; Salon tango is NOT Milonguero social dancing and is NOT connection and embrace!:shock: Yes, I'm convinced of this; that Salon is the result of the creeping in of performance tango del escenario and has co-opted the close embrace dance much the same way that Nuevo has done to the traditional....make sense? ...too complicated?
I wish I could be as sure as you Mario.
However you and I could talk about this endlessly probably
while boring everyone else silly.

My understanding is that BsAs Argentinians don't differentiate,
it's all salon to them if it's danced on a dancefloor. Your Sunderland Club/
Villa Urquiza video, while salon and not what we labelling non-argentinians
would call Milonguero, is a performance and the vibe inevitably is different.
You can see that as they immediately break out of the embrace at the end
of the music - music stops, so do they. If the connection is good on the social
dancefloor, sometimes your partner, sometimes both of you, need some
moments just to recover rather than abruptly ending.


Sure, the dances start with the embrace and connection much as most Nuevo dances do...but this is just to establish their place in history and tradition as being an offspring of the original Argentine tango social dance...and what happens a few steps later? The embrace is broken in favor of something that is SHOWEY...a sophisticated enrosque with offsetting cantilever leg twisting?? where's the embrace and where's the connection?...long gone.:(:(:(
But they are performances, what else can you expect?
I agree however that show/nuevo is everywhere.

This is where the important distinction has got to be made: Between Social dancing and Performance dancing.!!!
Not seemingly in London where the latest visiting teacher being promoted
is Pablo Veron, and that by the self-proclaimed "London's Leading and most popular tango club".
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
Ok, Im glad to get the chance here to chime in with my latest thinking/observations on this topic
It seems to me that you are not "getting the chance to chime in with your latest thinking" but rather that you are trying to find a tie to what has for awhile been your favorite topic: Disparaging styles of tango that you don't like.

JohnEm is correct. There is no distinction made in BA of salon vs milonguero. "Salon" is anything danced socially in a "salon" (dance hall). "Milonguero" is NOT an Argentine term for a dance style. It is a term for a specific class of male tango dancer. It is a PERSON, not a style.

We in the states (and maybe other places too?) use the term to mean a very specific style (and hold) of close embrace dancing. However, it is neither more "acceptable" than other close embrace holds in BA nor older as a distinguishable style. In fact, it's popularity was influenced heavily by Tete' in recent decades, by Sally Potter's film and teaching, and by Daniel Trenner using Tete' in his own tango development and Bridge to the Tango videos.

I would also like to point out that in your posted video of Richard Vidort on another thread, HE does not dance in what I would call a "milonguero" embrace, but more in what people around here erroneously call "Salon". It is slightly offset, and open on the lady's right to form a slight V. She is not flat-on to him, nor looking over his right shoulder. There is also not even the illusion of any apilado leaning. So your derogatory statements about Salon don't even make sense based on your own heroes.

JohnEm's point, as I read it, had mostly to do with the difficulty of judging the quality of social dancing (called "Salon" in competitions) when the quality of social dancing is primarily in the feel rather than the look. As such, it was right in line with this thread about competitions.

Debating the merits of various styles or holds for socialdancing seems to me to be off topic for the thread.

It also seems to me that we have quite a few threads about that already.
 

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