Ceroc Teaching

What makes you think they're necessary? Up until about 20 years ago, the music world managed pretty well without them.
When I started with MJ, the popular songs were things like Dr Alban, It's My Life - that sort of thing. No remixes needed or used.
In fact, the two remixes I'd really consider as Modern Jive remixes are the Touch and Go remix of Tango in Harlem (which was allegedly created for MJ)
That's the Secret Mix, yes? Only available to 4 DJs in the entire world, that one?

Another remix I love is a version of Relax, mixed with - errr, can't remember now - played by Latin Ian. It's a great track, but it's not easy to dance with.

I'm pretty sure I've danced to Samba Ti Pa at some point or other in a late night blues room.
If you're referring to Santana's Samba Pa Ti, I've definitely danced to that.
 

Angel HI

Well-Known Member
We (mods) are having a tough time at the moment. Regardless of right/wrong, let's care for the language and tone of our posts a wee more than normal. Thanks, gang. :)
 
I would also like to say to Mr Bailey that I am more than a little disappointed that you seem to find it all very amusing, as in the past I've found your experience and insight (much of it mirroring mine, only better expressed) always worth reading.

I enjoy wind-ups and infantile humour as much as the next immature idiot. However, at the risk of sounding like a home-counties Daily Mail reader, there's a time and place.

I found this particular thread very interesting and there are still some very useful pointers I intend to take from it. The thread has, however, now ended; simply because of the posts of jophil28 and (to a lessor extent) your apparently amused reaction to them.

Judith Donath who studied the effect of "trolling" noted that:-
Trolls can be costly in several ways. A troll can disrupt the discussion on a newsgroup, disseminate bad advice, and damage the feeling of trust in the newsgroup community. Furthermore, in a group that has become sensitized to trolling — where the rate of deception is high — many honestly naïve questions may be quickly rejected as trollings. This can be quite off-putting to the new user who upon venturing a first posting is immediately bombarded with angry accusations.
I no longer want anything to do with this thread and, given by the sudden drop off in posts, neither does anyone else. To have any meaningful and interesting discussion, there needs to be a level of trust with the participants. That trust has now been broken.

We could accept that this forum should just be a silly, uninformed series of rants and jokes. There is certainly a place for these. Until now however I didn't think this was it.
 

Angel HI

Well-Known Member
I would also like to say to Mr Bailey that I am more than a little disappointed that you seem to find it all very amusing, as in the past I've found your experience and insight (much of it mirroring mine, only better expressed) always worth reading.

I found this particular thread very interesting and there are still some very useful pointers I intend to take from it. The thread has, however, now ended; simply because of the posts of jophil28 and (to a lessor extent) your apparently amused reaction to them.
FTR, though I have voiced pro/con opinion of this thread, I have found nothing, as poster or mod, in Dave's posts that would threaten/harm it. Also, please keep in mind that the forum is for discussing opinions of dance. A post such as yours should have been a PM to Dave Bailey, and not voiced on the boards.
 
I no longer want anything to do with this thread and, given by the sudden drop off in posts, neither does anyone else.
To be honest, I think a lot of that is simply that the discussion had run its course. If there are any other points you want to raise, I'm sure I, David Bailey and others are happy to respond.

To have any meaningful and interesting discussion, there needs to be a level of trust with the participants. That trust has now been broken.
Although I think you have a point here, the solution is surely to ignore the participants you feel you can no longer trust. Ignoring the entire thread seems like a textbook example of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

We could accept that this forum should just be a silly, uninformed series of rants and jokes. There is certainly a place for these. Until now however I didn't think this was it.
If you didn't know, until recently David Bailey was a moderator on a dance himself, and (ironically) was generally the one working hardest to keep discussions on the straight and narrow. Even so, you can't take things too seriously. Sometimes the most effective response to trolls is to roll your eyes and laugh at them.

(It's perhaps also worth saying that David and I have a fair amount of 'shared' experience of Ceroc discussions - people like jophil28 are not exactly unknown to us).
 
FTR, though I have voiced pro/con opinion of this thread, I have found nothing, as poster or mod, in Dave's posts that would threaten/harm it. Also, please keep in mind that the forum is for discussing opinions of dance. A post such as yours should have been a PM to Dave Bailey, and not voiced on the boards.
I don't think you understand the point at all.

I waste far too much time on silly discussions with stupid people as it is.

Good bye and thanks for the fun while it lasted.
 
I have not read all 26 pages of this thread, but I have skimmed all of them and read most of the posts in the first few pages.

I am in Australia (Sydney). I don't know what Ceroc teaching is like elsewhere in the world.

For me, the big advantage of Ceroc is that classes and social occur together, and everyone is encouraged to dance with everyone else.
I pay my $15 and get a beginner class, 30 min social dancing, an intermediate class (or more personalised beginner class), and 45 min social dancing, with everybody encouraged to dance with every one else, regardless of skill.

I have been to salsa classes, and paid my $15 for the 50 min class. And the teachers said they would be at club x or club y or maybe club z on Saturday. And after paying 3 cover charges, I found the teachers, but they had no interest in dancing with beginners. And who else do I ask? Most of the people at the club are just there to drink.

I have been to lindy classes and paid my $15 for the 50 min class, and I was told about the Friday dance and the Saturday dance. I haven't been, so I can't comment further.

I have been to Argentine tango classes and paid my $15 and had my 40 min beginner class, and sat through the 40 min intermediate class, and then had nobody to dance with in the 1 hour practica.

For me, the biggest advantage of Ceroc is that it is a social activity. Classes and social dancing occur at the same place on the same night for the same price and everyone is encouraged to dance with strangers. The nearest equivalent is Argentine tango (class with practica). However, the Ceroc people dance with everyone; the tango people only dance with people they regard as worth dancing with. With salsa and swing, you do the class, and then have to go to separate social event, where you may or may not get a dance.

Yes, you can watch a group of people doing Ceroc and see a lot to laugh at. But take a group of AT dancers with the same number of lessons and watch them dance, if you can get them on the floor. Or salsa dancers. Or swing dancers. The culture of these other dances does not encourage people to actually do what they paid to learn until they have a certain skill. Ceroc tells people they can get on the dance floor after 1 class. Sure, most people are no good after 1 class, but they have fun and come back for more classes.
 

tangotime

Well-Known Member
Sure, most people are no good after 1 class, but they have fun and come back for more classes.[/quote]




You make some very valid points.. and dance should always be about choice.

Your salsa experience is whats due more to the complexity of the dance. Many beginners feel inadequate ( not all ) until they have established a basic skill set.. however.. there are classes that do encourage a practice session after class . This is not always practical ,due often to time constraints ( Im usually booked with other lessons ) but I try to run a regular social.
 
I have to say that in Scotland the AT practica's have a very similar atmosphere to Ceroc in that the beginners are not allowed to sit. I'm fairly certain this is because of the Ceroc influence, Lindy and WCS are pretty much the same.

It's the culture of Ceroc - with its focus on getting people up dancing - that makes it what it is.
 

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