Ceroc Teaching

Angel HI

Well-Known Member
Another thing, if the curriculum for the dance is set, say there are ten bronze moves, leading and following becomes easier. Your leading becomes choosing one of a limited set of moves. The follower only needs to understand what the move is, and then perform the move. The need for leading the whole move becomes less.
Your posts here have been so right on that I really do not want this common misconception to tarnish them. Though, I agree that what you posted occurs far, far too often...I like to say that one partner could drop dead and the other would finish the dance w/o him/her...this is, for good [real] dancers, not the case even in a structured dance. For these persons, even though they are dancing a prescribed pattern, the ability to lead/follow the nuances of the movement/s; rhythm/s, timing/s, styling/s, etc. are very present. I have judged 2 couples (supposedly of the same pro status) dancing exactly the same movements side by side, and at the same time, whereas one couple looked as though they were walking by the numbers, and the other was dancing.
 
I am sure you're absolutely right about that, Angel HI. And I understand exactly what you mean, because these are the same things that can make the basic step of for example Balboa into dancing.
 
I will add, also, that far too many dance teachers, esp. the younger ones (post mid-late '90s), haven't a clue of what BR dance is; they really believe that it is the list of steps on the paper, or at best, their own styles of learning adapted to being done with a partner.
But why don't the teachers themselves get taught?

I mean, is this sort of thing not covered in B/R teacher training or what?

:confused:
 
There's plenty of room for improvisation in ballroom dance - take the Waltz for instance, for a laugh I tried doing it open position (American style as opposed to International) - from the reaction I got you would think I'd tried to grope my partner in public.

Even though the mechanism and techiques are there for improvisation - its just not permitted.
 

tangotime

Well-Known Member
There's Even though the mechanism and techiques are there for improvisation - its just not permitted.

Not quite true...... as I stated earlier, that system is in operation as of now, and the WDC ( world dance council ) have been org. comp. in that " style " this included Europ. countries ... It has been adopted by the IDTA..

I also teach all my social students in that manner .
 

tangotime

Well-Known Member
But why don't the teachers themselves get taught?

I mean, is this sort of thing not covered in B/R teacher training or what?

:confused:
David, like Salsa, T/A etc. . it depends on the quality of the trainer and their background . Teachers who are at the Assoc level in B/room for e.g.,
are still considered to be in a " training " period.
And, as we know, Qualif. do not guarantee excellence in teaching, only in knowledge .
You have attended T/A classes with a well know Pro... I would submit, without seeing him teach, that his methods are far beyond the average teacher in that genre .

What has always surprised me is this... the number of people that will go for lessons ( priv. or class ) that do little or no check up on the teachers background . Discernment, it seems , is not a priority for the masses .
 
It was not that I was arguing US v Intl, but rather that I had seen the American style and thought I would have a go at putting a move or two into International - just to see how it worked.

I was improvising a pattern I'd seen. . . .
 

tangotime

Well-Known Member
It was not that I was arguing US v Intl, but rather that I had seen the American style and thought I would have a go at putting a move or two into International - just to see how it worked.

I was improvising a pattern I'd seen. . . .

The Amer. style, at all levels, has many similarities, and in some cases, identical variations .
 
It was not that I was arguing US v Intl, but rather that I had seen the American style and thought I would have a go at putting a move or two into International - just to see how it worked.

I was improvising a pattern I'd seen. . . .
The two work well together. My partner and I were trained in mostly international first, but every other studio around here teaches American first. We learned American so we could dance with them.

The hardest was tango. We first learned Am. tango, then learned Int. Spent two months arguing with the two, then went strictly international. Later, after our connection and ability to lead/follow improved thanks to focusing on international, we added Am. steps. Now it's no problem.

We blend the two quite often now.
 
I believe that FS answered this well......
I will add, also, that far too many dance teachers, esp. the younger ones (post mid-late '90s), haven't a clue of what BR dance is; they really believe that it is the list of steps on the paper, or at best, their own styles of learning adapted to being done with a partner.
Does anyone else often question the ads for ballroom teacher colleges, saying "No prior dance experience required. Be a teacher in six weeks!"

No prior experience? Only six weeks? How can these people be teachers when most don't fully understand what they're teaching? I was taught to balance chemical equations and calculate the amount of heat lost/gained during state changes, but I'm no chemist or physicist...
 

kayak

Active Member
Another thing, if the curriculum for the dance is set, say there are ten bronze moves, leading and following becomes easier. Your leading becomes choosing one of a limited set of moves. The follower only needs to understand what the move is, and then perform the move. The need for leading the whole move becomes less.
Aren't all dances a basic set of rule based moves until we as dancers understand them well enough to break the rules? Even in WCS or Lindy, there are a set of rules that create a set of patterns. Breaking the rules of swing to create musicality without structure just leads to an unfollowable mess doesn't it?

For a WCS example, there is no way to accelerate a whip to hit a musical break until both the leader and follower have done a whip enough times to see there is a different lead needed to hit that break.

Good instructors are able to get students up and dancing while instilling the foundational rules that make the dance work.
 
I dunno. . . .. when I want to accelerate a whip in WCS I just 'whip' them round on one leg Lindy style. . never thought much about how to do it, if I thought about it I couldn't do it.

The faster you go the more things are driven by physiology and reaction time.. . . there's no time to think.

I'm fascinated by the way steps are taught without any reference to size and physiology. Benij and Helen who taught me Lindy are 5' 6" and 5'0 respectively. It dramatically affects the way they do things, just as the fact that the way that Ricardo does Tango is highly influenced by his significantly over 6' hieght.
 

Angel HI

Well-Known Member
But why don't the teachers themselves get taught? I mean, is this sort of thing not covered in B/R teacher training or what?
In a word....no.

Aren't all dances a basic set of rule based moves until we as dancers understand them well enough to break the rules?
Again, in a word...no. This is the huge misconception that has gotten us into the mess that we are in now. Dance is not a set of rule based moves...it is a set of movement based rules. A play on words? Not even. Understandign this will make a huge difference in dance for beginners and others.
 
Aren't all dances a basic set of rule based moves until we as dancers understand them well enough to break the rules?
Only to a degree - AT is at one end of the spectrum of this (few moves, lots of technique) whereas Ceroc is probably at the other end (lots of moves, little technique), at least in terms of teaching.
 

tangotime

Well-Known Member
Well, that's a bit rubbish, isn't it? I mean, blimey, you hear all this stuff about how wonderful ballroom is, and now it turns out that the teachers aren't being taught to teach? :(


Like all disciplines, " Teachers " are taught WHAT to teach.. HOW is a skill set that takes time to develop.

Heres a comparison.... a Bronze certif. teacher should be able to take a beginners class, and go thru basic structure, whereas a " Lecture" or W/shop, needs to be in the hands of a highly Qualif. person who has developed their craft thru yrs of experience, and can detail the nuances.
 

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