Close embrace

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
I'm still trying to figure what's meant by a milonguero style back ocho without pivots.
In a pivoting ocho, the goal is to step on a line that is perpendicular to the pelvis. In order to do that, the hips must rotate to be perpendicular to the line of intended travel (whether it is a sequence of ochos or ochos as part of a molinete)

In the milonguero style of dancing, the line created by the placement of the foot is NOT perpendicular to the line of the hips. The hips remain facing the leader and the foot ends up crossing to whatever extent is necessary to land where the leader puts the follower. The video I posted of Mariana Galassi shows this in an extreme of crossing side steps, but they can also be done traveling.

But the key is that the followers hips face the leader and the leg does whatever it has to in order execute the step led. The extent of crossing depends on various factors of how (and where) the leader moves with his lead. If he travels, it will cross less. If he doesn't travel, it will cross so much as to be more of a side step than a backstep.

This video of Rebecca and Evan might help even though it is for a molinete, the same principle applies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_hA60U5fi0&feature=channel
 
Dave Bailey wrote: It's not a "milonguero style back ocho", it's an "ocho milonguero" - I'm not being picky here, the difference is important.

Does that mean these are two different steps? Whether or not, I gather from all the comments that any diagonal motion characteristic of ochos in open embrace has been reduced almost to vanishing in CE, and no pivoting is needed because the lady steps almost straight back anyway (but with a slight crossing of the feet.)
As I mentioned, back ochos in CE look to me almost like the normal walk anyway, in which the lady hides one foot behind the other or nearly so.
Other things are reduced that way in CE too. A sacada in a simple cross-system walk can be so subtle that the displacement is hardly noticeable compared to the regular steps before and after it.
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
Dave Bailey wrote: It's not a "milonguero style back ocho", it's an "ocho milonguero" - I'm not being picky here, the difference is important.

Does that mean these are two different steps? Whether or not, I gather from all the comments that any diagonal motion characteristic of ochos in open embrace has been reduced almost to vanishing in CE, and no pivoting is needed because the lady steps almost straight back anyway (but with a slight crossing of the feet.)
As I mentioned, back ochos in CE look to me almost like the normal walk anyway, in which the lady hides one foot behind the other or nearly so.
Other things are reduced that way in CE too. A sacada in a simple cross-system walk can be so subtle that the displacement is hardly noticeable compared to the regular steps before and after it.
My Bold - Define open embrace, go on, I dare you!
Another 300 posts coming up :p

As for the rest - hasn't all this been covered all this already?

But for clarity:

In the embrace an inline cross basic walk requires the lady to take her
free leg around the standing leg to pass. If the man steps slightly to each
side it becomes a travelling back ocho with the lady taking her free leg
further around and behind the standing leg. Reduce the travel of travelling
back ocho and with right lead and good connection it can reduce to a series
of repeating back crosses by each leg in turn with little or no travel at all.

Is that clearer?
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
Dave Bailey wrote: It's not a "milonguero style back ocho", it's an "ocho milonguero" - I'm not being picky here, the difference is important.

Does that mean these are two different steps? Whether or not, I gather from all the comments that any diagonal motion characteristic of ochos in open embrace has been reduced almost to vanishing in CE, and no pivoting is needed because the lady steps almost straight back anyway (but with a slight crossing of the feet.)
As I mentioned, back ochos in CE look to me almost like the normal walk anyway, in which the lady hides one foot behind the other or nearly so.
Other things are reduced that way in CE too. A sacada in a simple cross-system walk can be so subtle that the displacement is hardly noticeable compared to the regular steps before and after it.
I think DB was the one being picky, but generally the step being discussed is usually referred to as either milonguero ochos or ocho(s) milonguero. You don't normally see it referred to with the word "style" in there any place. I think most of us knew what you were referring to though. Thus, it is not 2 different steps.

We seem to have as many discussions here about the proper (as well as the meaning of) terminology, as we do about the actual tango concepts. I suspect it's due to people being from all different countries, and not wanting to conform to the proper (i.e. US) dialect of the English language.

 
JohnEm wrote: "... an inline cross basic walk requires the lady to take her free leg around the standing leg to pass. If the man steps slightly to each side it becomes a travelling back ocho with the lady taking her free leg further around and behind the standing leg."

Clear -- and consonant, I think, with what I said about the similarity of the two. (However, we do have "travelling back ocho," which I take to be the same as "ocho milonguero."

Zoopsia, I see dancers do back ochos in CE with a (small) rotation of the hips while keeping their upper body still and maintaining chest connection. I didn't know it was wrong but will look over these videos. Thanks, everyone; this topic is covered, I believe.
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
Clear -- and consonant, I think, with what I said about the similarity of the two. (However, we do have "travelling back ocho," which I take to be the same as "ocho milonguero."
Not necessarily.




I've often seen the term traveling ocho(s) used to describe the pivoting ones as well, with the distinction being that the pivot is not as much as in "normal" or horizontal ochos (say 45 degrees relative to the leader, rather than 90 degrees). Basically, in traveling ochos you do progress some, while when done "normal" or horizontally, it's more or less stationary (with respect to progressing with the LOD).

The moral of the story, most of these terms depend on the context of which they are being used, and of course it's often difficult to determine that context when typing posts in a forum, (similar to the term milonga, it could be referring to a dance, a song, or an event).
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
Zoopsia, I see dancers do back ochos in CE with a (small) rotation of the hips while keeping their upper body still and maintaining chest connection. I didn't know it was wrong but will look over these videos. Thanks, everyone; this topic is covered, I believe.
I don't know that I would say it's WRONG... I hate getting into right and wrong. It's not like there's some milonguro police that are going to judge if the follower lets her hips pivot some while maintaining complete upper body contact. it's just not necessary to do that pivoting to be "correct". For some people the disassociation required to keep the chest connected and pivot the hips is harder. For other people, crossing the leg sideways without pivoting is harder.

As Jorge Torres said to me... "It's SOCIAL dancing.. it should be comfortable, not painful."

If pivoting or not pivoting doesn't hinder the leader or disrupt the expected connection, I can't imagine it matters.
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
I've often seen the term traveling ocho(s) used to describe the pivoting ones as well, with the distinction being that the pivot is not as much as in "normal" or horizontal ochos (say 45 degrees relative to the leader, rather than 90 degrees).
The follower pivots as much as the leader leads her to pivot in this case. Pivoting more than he intends probably would result in her not landing her step where he wants her to if he's trying to travel and she's overpivoting. Or, she ends up taking a rather goofy step to the outside of her pivot to land where he wants after pivoting too far.

If she doesn't pivot enough, then she's basically just turned the ocho into a non-pivoting milonguero ocho.

My personal opinion is that it's better to pivot too little than too much in a traveling ocho. If you end up crossing back, that's ok. It's less awkward than pivoting too far and then having to adjust the step the other way, which can result in an uncomfortable, awkward, an unattractive turned in position of the legs (relative to the hip)
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
The follower pivots as much as the leader leads her to pivot in this case. Pivoting more than he intends probably would result in her not landing her step where he wants her to if he's trying to travel and she's overpivoting. Or, she ends up taking a rather goofy step to the outside of her pivot to land where he wants after pivoting too far.

If she doesn't pivot enough, then she's basically just turned the ocho into a non-pivoting milonguero ocho.

My personal opinion is that it's better to pivot too little than too much in a traveling ocho. If you end up crossing back, that's ok. It's less awkward than pivoting too far and then having to adjust the step the other way, which can result in an turned in position of the leg (relative to the hip)
Never mind the names, it's quite clear we understand each other,
American English not withstanding.

Your first and last paragraphs are absolutely right. If the lady over pivots
beyond the response the man's lead needs (which may mean no pivot),
she steps too far one side risking losing balance and breaking the connection.
It happens though.
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
I don't know that I would say it's WRONG... I hate getting into right and wrong. It's not like there's some milonguro police that are going to judge if the follower lets her hips pivot some while maintaining complete upper body contact. it's just not necessary to do that pivoting to be "correct". For some people the disassociation required to keep the chest connected and pivot the hips is harder. For other people, crossing the leg sideways without pivoting is harder.

As Jorge Torres said to me... "It's SOCIAL dancing.. it should be comfortable, not painful."

If pivoting or not pivoting doesn't hinder the leader or disrupt the expected connection, I can't imagine it matters.
Yes, there's usually more than one right answer for this stuff. It's just a matter of finding the ones that work for each individual.

Of course, there are a lot of wrong answers too.

 

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