Counting me in? Turning me off!

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#41
borikensalsero said:
I've seen some killer Rumbas. Wow. See, if a ballroom dancer was to translate that into their social dancing in salsa, then that would look hot.

I saw a performance where a social salsa couple, I may add very decorated, danced to a sloooooow salsa. Sad to say, not many salseros can dance slow, still be continuous and sexy. So, they killed the song, All through out they looked like they were too used to dancing to fast paced salsa.

Then, oh my, OH MY GOD. A ballroom couple did exactly the same choreography to the exact same song. I turned to my lady love and told her, see that is what I've been complaining about social dancers! The ballroom couple looked not only sensual, but floooooooooooowy and impeccable to the beat.... AHHHHHHHHHH, now that is how a slow salsa is danced. :D
Absolutely. Good dancing is... good dancing. Even if you're not from Cuba (LOL)...
 
#42
Chris Stratton said:
but there's not denying that a half complete technical education can have it's own way of awkwardness in a social situation!
LOL!! That's what makes beginners - intermediates!! LOL
 
#43
saludas said:
borikensalsero said:
Note that the difference comes from desired result. In social dancing it is about the music, where as in the ballroom world it is about the dance. So, to us in the social world, if any one movement is sharper than the music, the person isn't dancing very well. Even if they are ballroom champions. On the dance floor they will look stiff, out of touch with the music and in need of some social dancing help.
I think that ANY movement is sharper than the music, it'll be considered bad dancing in any dance.

However, social dancing is the LAST place to look for this kind of help. I'd suggest coaching on technique. Social dancing makes dancers look and perform softly, but for the wrong reasons, and to the dertiment of any improvement.

SPEED of movement is developed over time dancing. CONTROL of movement the same. EXPRESSION (they way you make a movement LOOK) is developed through learning technique and by experience.

You can't have good movement without control of your body - that's why you practice, for that muscle memory to go in, and stop you from 'thinking' too much.

Social dancing is great for... your social life, but isn't really practice in the sense that I am talking about.
This is the issue that collides with Salseros and some of your posts, even when they are truly informative, they lack understanding of the street world. All the technique in a ballroom world will never create a street salsero. Instead, the person must get away from all the rules and regulations and go against ballroom decorated techniques in terms of creating a result.

It is in result that we differ, not technique. Body movement technique is all the same! It is result that changes its application, which is what seems to lack when you speak of the street world, because it applies rules that create an undesirable result.

Social dancing's need aren't the same as that of the ballroom world. Why would a social dancer desire to look ballroomish? Why would a ballroom dancer want to look street?

We are talking about two totally different animals. What is sought after in ballroom is asked to stay on the porch in the street world. The technique is used based on applicability to result.

It means nothing about my technique rather its application towards a different result. You stress the correctness of technique, based on what you have been taught to be correct based upon what the dance is desired to look. I do the same, yet that dance isn’t supposed to look ballroom, even while using the exact same rules of body movement.

It is relative Saludas. I've yet to see a ballroom couple dance a cha cha or a mambo that hasn't over powered the music. Why? Because I am looking at it from a completely different set of standards, cha cha is neither sharp, quick, or sudden. Coming from a street point of view, they are all part of a cha cha and a mambo in ballroom. Hence, why all street dancers say what they say about ballroom salsa, and cha cha. What to you is prefect blend of body and music, is an utter mis-understanding of the music to us in the street world.

It isn't to say that you are wrong and I am correct. All it means is that the absolute perfect applicability of technique under one scenario based upon a desired result, is out of place in another. Otherwise, every salsero in this forum would agree with your statements about the look and feel, when and how of the dance. Yet, we don’t.

I certainly believe that it has nothing to do with how much I know or don’t know about technique, but rather how I use your exactly same techniques of body movement, to create a totally different result.
 
#44
borikensalsero said:
I certainly believe that it has nothing to do with how much I know or don’t know about technique, but rather how I use your exactly same techniques of body movement, to create a totally different result.
True, and I understand your points.

We are really talking about the same thing, though, in 'result' - it's expression. The expression of a street salsa is not the same as a ballroom cha cha, for sure. But, we both DO seem to agree that the better the dancer is, the better the result - the expression is better because the expressEE can do it, better.

The 'salsa street attitude' CAN be visualised, created, and performed by people who dance well. They just need to understand what is the 'expression' is that makes it salsa. You verbalised much of it in your post very clearly.

For instance, in ballroom, cha cha is characterised as a game of cat-and-mouse, quick and playful. That's why you see all the syncopations and chasing. Take that characterization away, and all it is is 'moves'. To make a dance come alive it must express these things.

To make dance come alive, tho, it needs a good dancer.
 
#45
geez still full of it

saludas said:
borikensalsero said:
I've seen some killer Rumbas. Wow. See, if a ballroom dancer was to translate that into their social dancing in salsa, then that would look hot.

I saw a performance where a social salsa couple, I may add very decorated, danced to a sloooooow salsa. Sad to say, not many salseros can dance slow, still be continuous and sexy. So, they killed the song, All through out they looked like they were too used to dancing to fast paced salsa.

Then, oh my, OH MY GOD. A ballroom couple did exactly the same choreography to the exact same song. I turned to my lady love and told her, see that is what I've been complaining about social dancers! The ballroom couple looked not only sensual, but floooooooooooowy and impeccable to the beat.... AHHHHHHHHHH, now that is how a slow salsa is danced. :D
Absolutely. Good dancing is... good dancing. Even if you're not from Cuba (LOL)...
obviously good dancing = non-social non-cuban jewish/italian ballroom dancing

now it's crystal clear to the rest of us bad-dancing beginner social street salsa heathens on this salsa forum

gaaaa
 
#47
saludas said:
This is the gist of my comments - that a good leader gives a lead that allows the follower to move onTo the beat. A bad leader will complain that the follower is late or that the follower does not know where they rhythm is, but it is the lead's responsibility to do that. That's why it's always good for leaders to imagine themselves as a follower during dance.
There is a difference between dancing salsa like patterns using ballroom techniques and actually dancing Salsa. I think you are still stuck in the ballroom frame of mind. In ballroom "good leader gives a lead that allows the follower to move onTo the beat", or in other words, using lead&follow for basic actions. In salsa the follower keeps the rhythm and basic actions, and the lead creates variations and patterns building onto the follower's movements.
 
#48
baha :lol: no no i love jewish and italian and cuban and all people, was I just referring to many old comments posted that sounded anti cuban and pro jewish (now there's an agenda I still haven't figured out)
 

chachachacat

Well-Known Member
#49
africana said:
baha :lol: no no i love jewish and italian and cuban and all people, was I just referring to many old comments posted that sounded anti cuban and pro jewish (now there's an agenda I still haven't figured out)
No offense at all, I was just being funny!
 
#50
Pebbles said:
In salsa the follower keeps the rhythm and basic actions, and the lead creates variations and patterns building onto the follower's movements.
I certainly don't agree with this. That is what it LOOKS like, but I doubt that a leader will actually agree that all they do is 'nudge' the follower into new patterns, while not creating the rhythm.

I take that back - I seem many 'leaders' doing that a lot. I just don't think they are doing the right thing...
 
#51
saludas said:
borikensalsero said:
I certainly believe that it has nothing to do with how much I know or don’t know about technique, but rather how I use your exactly same techniques of body movement, to create a totally different result.
True, and I understand your points.

We are really talking about the same thing, though, in 'result' - it's expression. The expression of a street salsa is not the same as a ballroom cha cha, for sure. But, we both DO seem to agree that the better the dancer is, the better the result - the expression is better because the expressEE can do it, better.
I agree when basing observations upon a desired result, at this time Mambo.

I’d like to get a little philosophical though... as this is where my response truly states my beliefs on “better”.

A dancer is a great dancer regardless of another’s judgment of the person’s skills. Why great? The action of dancing makes that person the best dancer that person can be to himself. It wouldn’t make for a very good performance to see someone jumping around attempting to do mambo, but heck, I’m judging him from what I want to see… Other than that…. WEEEEEEEEEPAAAA. I might not pay to see that show.

:?
 
#52
Sagitta said:
fascination said:
clave said:
Ah, that would explain the jerky appearance of ballroom dancing. !
JERKY??????????????never experienced that at least not on purpose
Perhaps a better description is sharp? :wink: I know we have talked about the difference about ballroom and club salsa/cha cha cha before...hmmm..
:lol:

And we will again. :wink:
 
#53
saludas said:
Pebbles said:
In salsa the follower keeps the rhythm and basic actions, and the lead creates variations and patterns building onto the follower's movements.
I certainly don't agree with this. That is what it LOOKS like, but I doubt that a leader will actually agree that all they do is 'nudge' the follower into new patterns, while not creating the rhythm.

I take that back - I seem many 'leaders' doing that a lot. I just don't think they are doing the right thing...
There are many popular salsa patterns where the lead breaks off briefly then reconnects with the follower. If the follower is not keeping her own rhythm independent of the lead, she won't have the right momentum and position when the reconnect happens. If you've done any salsa beyond the basics, I don't see how you could have missed it.
 
#54
'nudge' seems like a workable leading technique - the key would be to apply the lead at exactly the right time. It doesn't really matter who is counting out the follower's actions - she's moving and there's a time at the arrival on each step when you can indicate a new direction that she can easily flow into, while outside of that window when she can only awkwardly respond to new information.

And that's exactly how the turn in a latin alemana is lead - as the lady arrives on the step, a mutual compression in the hands nudges her to convert the arrival into a turn. It's easier for the leader to do if he's taken a matching step in the same timing, but that's not essential if he can really think her movements in place of whatever alternative his body is doing.
 
#55
Pebbles said:
There are many popular salsa patterns where the lead breaks off briefly then reconnects with the follower. If the follower is not keeping her own rhythm independent of the lead, she won't have the right momentum and position when the reconnect happens. If you've done any salsa beyond the basics, I don't see how you could have missed it.
However, in ALL dancing the follow continues to dance even when they are not 'connected' physically. And all followers have to do this by dancing to the music. What's your point?
 
#56
saludas said:
However, in ALL dancing the follow continues to dance even when they are not 'connected' physically. And all followers have to do this by dancing to the music. What's your point?
In ballroom you can disconnect for several bars and dance independently. If you think that is similiar to dancing salsa turn patterns, where the break/reconnect can happen within one or two beats for several times in a pattern, you missed the point entirely.
 
#57
Pebbles said:
saludas said:
However, in ALL dancing the follow continues to dance even when they are not 'connected' physically. And all followers have to do this by dancing to the music. What's your point?
In ballroom you can disconnect for several bars and dance independently. If you think that is similiar to dancing salsa turn patterns, where the break/reconnect can happen within one or two beats for several times in a pattern, you missed the point entirely.
I guess I did. Tell me what the difference is between disconnecting for 1 beat or 20?
 
#58
:lol: :lol: wow even the ballroom experts disagree with you

just so you know saludas, I'm holding my breath waiting for the next salsa workshop you teach, maybe at a premier congress? I'll be the first to sign up :lol:
but of course I prefer to watch my teachers actually dance salsa to see whether or not they know what they're talking about
 
#59
saludas said:
Pebbles said:
In ballroom you can disconnect for several bars and dance independently. If you think that is similiar to dancing salsa turn patterns, where the break/reconnect can happen within one or two beats for several times in a pattern, you missed the point entirely.
I guess I did. Tell me what the difference is between disconnecting for 1 beat or 20?
There are repeated 1-2 beat disconnections in American ballroom as well.

What's generally not seen in ballroom is true, unscripted overt dialogue-type interaction - I'm sure it happens now and then, but it's rarely the emphasis and so isn't what people tend to practice towards being prepared for. (Doesn't mean it's always scripted, just that the spontaneous form does not tend to be dialogue - you don't really see follower's shines too often)
 
#60
saludas said:
Pebbles said:
saludas said:
However, in ALL dancing the follow continues to dance even when they are not 'connected' physically. And all followers have to do this by dancing to the music. What's your point?
In ballroom you can disconnect for several bars and dance independently. If you think that is similiar to dancing salsa turn patterns, where the break/reconnect can happen within one or two beats for several times in a pattern, you missed the point entirely.
I guess I did. Tell me what the difference is between disconnecting for 1 beat or 20?
Find out yourself:

1. Sign up for an advanced turn pattern class with a top salsa instructor. You are in NY. And since you are such an advanced dancer, you ought to know who they are.

2. Try lead the turn patterns with all the ballroom techniques that you keep insisting all good salsa dancers do.

3. see your own results
 
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