Counting me in? Turning me off!

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#61
Pebbles said:
saludas said:
Pebbles said:
saludas said:
Tell me what the difference is between disconnecting for 1 beat or 20?
Find out yourself
Gee, there seems to be a lot of hostility, P. Sorry this thread of discussion gets you so bent out of shape!!

So, I guess there is no difference is there...

You see, I am discussing this as a dance concept - I don't think salsa dancing has a 'lock' on things like lead and follow and connection concepts (they may feel different but they are stilkl there)... I think that salsa, while it has many expressions peculiar to the 'look', still conforms to the basic precepts of good dance.

A good point was brought up about 'shines', tho. There certainly are, in ballroom - they're written in to the syllabus, actually. In ballroom Latin, for instance, every dance has at least one figure that has either call-and-response or mirror dancing while not connected. One example is 'three threes' in rhumba. And of course, in open dancing, things like that are almost required to make the dance look good.... and in open, the concept of 'shine' is there. It's called 'improvisation'...

There is a concurrent thread asking wheter synchronius salsa performances are embodying the 'salsa spirit'. This seems to be a recurring theme - that Salsa expression has very definite borders and 'rules'. Perhaps this is what P is talking about. The mechanics are there (and a good dancer brings in elements from ALL styles of dance into their dancing) but perhaps salsa dancers on this thread think that the 'salsa spirit' is somehow diluted if we talk about crftsmanship and balance, center and timing? I sort of don't see why it is so agita-provoking to discuss salsa as anything other than the 'mystically handed down from Cubans as the one pure dance' concept that I get from these threads sometimes.
 
#62
My suggestion was for you take a class and find out first hand the difference that you insist do not exist. If you think that is hostility, well then I'm very very sorry for offending you.
 
#63
Pebbles said:
My suggestion was for you take a class and find out first hand the difference that you insist do not exist. If you think that is hostility, well then I'm very very sorry for offending you.
Ok, no prob. But, the question to you still remains: what is the difference between seaprating for 1 beat or 20 beats in salsa that is different than any other partner dance...
 

Vin

New Member
#64
There is a difference in what they are talking about as opposed to shines. Often times many of the things we do on the dance floor call for the follow and lead to interpret a couple of beats of the music seperately while still being connected.

For swing folk a common example of this might be a swingout. At the end of a swingout the partners are still connected yet the follow has a beat or two to interpret by themselves.

In order to really get the most out of these moments the partners do have to be in sync rhythmically.
 
#65
Vin said:
There is a difference in what they are talking about as opposed to shines. Often times many of the things we do on the dance floor call for the follow and lead to interpret a couple of beats of the music seperately while still being connected.

For swing folk a common example of this might be a swingout. At the end of a swingout the partners are still connected yet the follow has a beat or two to interpret by themselves.

In order to really get the most out of these moments the partners do have to be in sync rhythmically.
agreed. I don't see why this is anything different, in salsa. The rhythm and expression of the dance is there, even when the partners are disconnected. There is no 'shine' that cannot be compared to this action in many other partner dances. For instance, in Latin cha cha, the 'shine' looks like (for instance) a tease and response, or in Samba, it is a 'dare and challemnge' (for example)...
 
#66
In ballroom it goes something like: oh I see the lead for sliding doors is coming, so in 2 beats I'll switch from lead&follow for basic actions to doing them on my own for 2 bars.

In salsa the break in connection can happen at any instant, the follower usually doesn't have prior knowledge of when it happens. So if the follower is waiting for a lead before doing any basic actions, by the time she realizes the break happens, it is already too late.
 
#67
Pebbles said:
In ballroom it goes something like: oh I see the lead for sliding doors is coming, so in 2 beats I'll switch from lead&follow for basic actions to doing them on my own for 2 bars.

In salsa the break in connection can happen at any instant, the follower usually doesn't have prior knowledge of when it happens. So if the follower is waiting for a lead before doing any basic actions, by the time she realizes the break happens, it is already too late.
only in syllabus. Open dancing is not dependent on such strict syllabus movement.
 

Josh

Active Member
#68
saludas said:
Gee, there seems to be a lot of hostility, P. Sorry this thread of discussion gets you so bent out of shape!!

but perhaps salsa dancers on this thread think that the 'salsa spirit' is somehow diluted if we talk about crftsmanship and balance, center and timing? I sort of don't see why it is so agita-provoking to discuss salsa as anything other than the 'mystically handed down from Cubans as the one pure dance' concept that I get from these threads sometimes.
I think it goes both ways ... sometimes technically trained dancers mistakenly feel that their way is the only way, and that's it, which is just not the case. On the other hand, some social-only dancers mistakenly conclude that they are somehow getting the 'real deal' because they are 'street' and that technical principles and concepts somehow, as you said, dilute their self-expression or the 'salsa spirit'.

In reality, I think that both ways of thinking contribute to a good salsa dancer. It doesn't have to be one or the other. We don't have to insist that our way is the only way. For someone to insist that a particular technique must be applied certainly takes away from the 'spirit of salsa', as does someone who would suggest that good technique and dance principles are not important.

Maybe I can liken it to reading aloud. Good, enjoyable oral reading is read accurately from the page, using good pronunciation. It also is read with feeling and tone, which really puts deeper meaning into the words read. The reading is thus technically sound and expressive.

Isn't it more important that we all enjoy our dancing and not fight fights that can't be won anyway? It's opinion, and we're all free to express it, but why undermine by our arguing the enjoyment of the very thing we're here to discuss--dancing?
 
#70
saludas said:
Pebbles said:
In ballroom it goes something like: oh I see the lead for sliding doors is coming, so in 2 beats I'll switch from lead&follow for basic actions to doing them on my own for 2 bars.

In salsa the break in connection can happen at any instant, the follower usually doesn't have prior knowledge of when it happens. So if the follower is waiting for a lead before doing any basic actions, by the time she realizes the break happens, it is already too late.
only in syllabus. Open dancing is not dependent on such strict syllabus movement.
I think you still missed the point. Open level ballroom figures also have lead&follow for basic actions. Doing that in salsa and you'll have a lot of trouble with advanced turn patterns. It is one thing to talk and insist the difference does not exist, it is quite another to actually dance it.
 
#71
Pebbles said:
saludas said:
Pebbles said:
In ballroom it goes something like: oh I see the lead for sliding doors is coming, so in 2 beats I'll switch from lead&follow for basic actions to doing them on my own for 2 bars.

In salsa the break in connection can happen at any instant, the follower usually doesn't have prior knowledge of when it happens. So if the follower is waiting for a lead before doing any basic actions, by the time she realizes the break happens, it is already too late.
only in syllabus. Open dancing is not dependent on such strict syllabus movement.
I think you still missed the point. Open level ballroom figures also have lead&follow for basic actions. Doing that in salsa and you'll have a lot of trouble with advanced turn patterns. It is one thing to talk and insist the difference does not exist, it is quite another to actually dance it.
Why? What are 'advanced turn patterns'; aren't they patterns?
 
#73
saludas said:
The mechanics are there (and a good dancer brings in elements from ALL styles of dance into their dancing) but perhaps salsa dancers on this thread think that the 'salsa spirit' is somehow diluted if we talk about crftsmanship and balance, center and timing? I sort of don't see why it is so agita-provoking to discuss salsa as anything other than the 'mystically handed down from Cubans as the one pure dance' concept that I get from these threads sometimes.
:lol: don't get "it" twisted sir

I still don't get the anti-cuban references in your posts, more so because no one on here insists on idolizing or even mentioning cubans or cuban's way of dance. You seem to do enough of it for us

Anyways, as EVERYBODY else has said in some form (and you didn't get still) stop force-feeding us ballroom dancing. This IS a Salsa Forum. And there IS a GENERAL dance forum, as well as a BALLROOM dance forum. You can educate us all (including yur ballroom counterparts) on the excellence of your interpretation of "good dancing" and what "good dancers" ought to do
Turning everything into ballroom-angled concepts, even if there are similarities in salsa and "good dancing", ends up confusing and distorting questions and issues, particularly for less experienced salsa AND ballroom dancers who are learning salsa
Heck it confuses me too :lol:

I really agree that there's more to learn from every dance discipline, just like in sports, cross training always helps, and salsa borrows from many many dance techniques. But all this going on is NOT helpful, because there are significant differences between dances, including what one must do to be "good" in each of them. If you can't accept that, then you have no idea what you're talking about

But if you know salsa so well, great! (I'm not convinced lol). As it happens quite a few of us spend time learning the finer details, ALL aspects, because as Josh said we ALL love dancing, and on this particular forum, we love SALSA dancing.

Talk the Talk, Walk the Walk

(but I'm sure this'll go over your head too. oh well, I tried :? )
 
#74
clave said:
<hijack alert>

Someone clue me in please: in ballroom is there hijacking?

</hijack alert>

(Oh I pun in html! :bouncy:)
:lol: :lol:
yeah ballroom hijacks everything on this forum :evil: too bad i can't keep enough interest to learn it
 

Sagitta

Well-Known Member
#75
Patterns are patterns.

Improvisation is something different.

To that I must agree. I'll also go back to boriken's post about everyone using technique etc but for a different purpose. There is beauty in each way of dancing from that viewpoint. But a ballroom perspective of salsa will never fly in the salsa forum, as africana said. However, pointing out the differences is always welcomed. I have found Chris S.'s points in this thread about the differences in terms of shines etc useful and have helped fill in my understanding of ballroom more then the debate going on here. My 2 cents.
 

Vin

New Member
#76
saludas said:
Vin said:
There is a difference in what they are talking about as opposed to shines. Often times many of the things we do on the dance floor call for the follow and lead to interpret a couple of beats of the music seperately while still being connected.

For swing folk a common example of this might be a swingout. At the end of a swingout the partners are still connected yet the follow has a beat or two to interpret by themselves.

In order to really get the most out of these moments the partners do have to be in sync rhythmically.
agreed. I don't see why this is anything different, in salsa. The rhythm and expression of the dance is there, even when the partners are disconnected. There is no 'shine' that cannot be compared to this action in many other partner dances. For instance, in Latin cha cha, the 'shine' looks like (for instance) a tease and response, or in Samba, it is a 'dare and challemnge' (for example)...
Shines are different in that there is no connection between the partners. The connection is to the music.
 
#77
africana said:
Anyways, as EVERYBODY else has said in some form (and you didn't get still) stop force-feeding us ballroom dancing. This IS a Salsa Forum. And there IS a GENERAL dance forum, as well as a BALLROOM dance forum. You can educate us all (including yur ballroom counterparts) on the excellence of your interpretation of "good dancing" and what "good dancers" ought to do
Turning everything into ballroom-angled concepts, even if there are similarities in salsa and "good dancing", ends up confusing and distorting questions and issues, particularly for less experienced salsa AND ballroom dancers who are learning salsa
Heck it confuses me too :lol:
Talk the Talk, Walk the Walk

(but I'm sure this'll go over your head too. oh well, I tried :? )
Sure, I hear you.

Goodbye to this forum, I guess. And, sorry to 'confuse' you.
 

Kindra

New Member
#79
I know this thread probably needs to rest...but I have a few thoughts/questions, especially since I'm one who has crossed over from a very technical ballroom background to dancing salsa only socially (never taken a formal salsa class).

borikensalsero said:
There should be no sudden movements to either begin or end any move. The moves must flow.
Okay...........
So, my question is:
Why MUST the moves flow...why can't you play with the music and interpret it as you want?? For example: By adding in syncopations, or pausing when the music doesn't necessarily give you a reason to pause, but it just feels good..for whatever reason?

borikensalsero said:
No sharp movements go with salsa
REALLY? NONE? EVER?

We are talking about "street" salsa right? Doesn't anything sorta go...If that's what the music motivates you to do?

borikensalsero said:
So, to us in the social world, if any one movement is sharper than the music, the person isn't dancing very well.
Ummm...I'm in the social world and I don't think people- whose movement is sometimes sharper than the music, aren't dancing well.
Why do you think they aren't dancing well? Because their interpretation of the music isn't the same as yours?

Given that everyone has a different "movement" background (any dance training, sports, clubbing with friends, yoga, karate...etc.) ...everyone is going to adapt to salsa differently. In social dancing...who's judging? Other than your partner?

Makes me wonder how my dancing is perceived by the "salsa elite", because I have technical knowledge which shows in my dancing (strong footwork primarily, and the way I follow)...which I think, gives me the freedom and skill to achieve certain things to the music that some others don't have.

I dunno.....just some random thoughts I had, after reading this thread.
 
#80
Kindra said:
I know this thread probably needs to rest...but I have a few thoughts/questions, especially since I'm one who has crossed over from a very technical ballroom background to dancing salsa only socially (never taken a formal salsa class).

borikensalsero said:
There should be no sudden movements to either begin or end any move. The moves must flow.
Okay...........
So, my question is:
Why MUST the moves flow...why can't you play with the music and interpret it as you want?? For example: By adding in syncopations, or pausing when the music doesn't necessarily give you a reason to pause, but it just feels good..for whatever reason?

borikensalsero said:
No sharp movements go with salsa
REALLY? NONE? EVER?

We are talking about "street" salsa right? Doesn't anything sorta go...If that's what the music motivates you to do?

borikensalsero said:
So, to us in the social world, if any one movement is sharper than the music, the person isn't dancing very well.
Ummm...I'm in the social world and I don't think people- whose movement is sometimes sharper than the music, aren't dancing well.
Why do you think they aren't dancing well? Because their interpretation of the music isn't the same as yours?

Given that everyone has a different "movement" background (any dance training, sports, clubbing with friends, yoga, karate...etc.) ...everyone is going to adapt to salsa differently. In social dancing...who's judging? Other than your partner?

Makes me wonder how my dancing is perceived by the "salsa elite", because I have technical knowledge which shows in my dancing (strong footwork primarily, and the way I follow)...which I think, gives me the freedom and skill to achieve certain things to the music that some others don't have.

I dunno.....just some random thoughts I had, after reading this thread.
there (not) random thoughts kindra, i like how you think, never let anyone tell u what is and what is not salsa or whatever dance u do-were social dancers and have a right to feel and interpet as we see fit :wink: sure in some dances there are rules for competeting , anyway you go girl 8), salsa has grown into many things now.
 
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