Dancing? Or Puppetmaster Pulling Strings?

What's there to "get" about ballroom, if I don't like it? Do you think if I dance like that, I'll "Get it" and therefore like it? I think it's stiff, they need to learn to relax their bodies and understand the music, they don't have sabor, and they're NOT hot. What more do I need to get? If you or someone out there have some video examples that can help me "get it", please pass them along.

BTW, cool and masculine does not = HOT. Again, it's like trying to "explain" sabor to you.

LoL. You obviously don't get it. Ballroom it's supposed to be different, to GET it you have to understand the traits that give ballroom authenticity, you have to understand the emotion.

I know it's hard to explain something as esoteric as 'sabor', especially when you lack the tools. That's why I'm not even asking you to. I GET it.

I should insert some spanish in here, that will certainly add more credibility to my post.
 
What's there to "get" about ballroom, if I don't like it? Do you think if I dance like that, I'll "Get it" and therefore like it? I think it's stiff, they need to learn to relax their bodies and understand the music, they don't have sabor, and they're NOT hot. What more do I need to get? If you or someone out there have some video examples that can help me "get it", please pass them along.

BTW, cool and masculine does not = HOT. Again, it's like trying to "explain" sabor to you.
You're right, thinking that if you learn the technique that you'll somehow understand it is not necessarily true - but it IS true that 'walking a mile in my shoes' is a good thing for you to try to understand what a dancer goes through. And eventually you'll come to respect all forms of expression, but just saying 'I'll know it when I see it' is disingenuous.

By the way, just like the joke that 'there are 6 million people in the world and only 10 supermodels', there are still only a handful of 'greats' in any field of the arts. I'd be very surprised if all 10 of the best salsa dancers on the planet go to your social every week... or are on YouTube... so relax; you've yet to even SEE great dancing in your chosen area - PLUS remeber that video is only 2 dimensional, which precludes seeing a lot of what is happening.

Irish dancers have plenty of soul, but part of their expression is that their upper bodies are immobile. Nobody can say that a modern dancer does not have soul, but many times a modern dancer moves antagonistally to the music and space. And nobody can say a social salsa dancer does not have soul, but a salsa dancer does not move more than a few feet from a common center, or dance to music that is not a narrowy defined musical form.

These 'limitations' actually MAKE the expression. Same with a Latin dancer. You're just not allowing yourself to see what is happening (or you're choosing not to educate yourself in the world of dance). No offense meant, but seeing the whole world of dance rather than seeing the dance form that you know best only as an ethnic or cultural reference would give you the perspective to see that your undefinable 'sabor' is actually very definable. it is the essence of expression in dance.

A dancer who feels music with long, graceful swinging actions will choose to do this through Standard, or ballet, for instance. A dancer who feels music as percussive or rhthmic might choose to tap dance or clog. Both of these expressions have a commonality of excellence; the greatest tap dancers weave 'magic'; who can say that Savion Glover or the late Gregory Hines was not compelling or soulful? Or that Barishnikov was not emotionally arresting simply moving his arm?

The choice of how a dancer expresses should never be limited by the audience's narrow definition of their likes or dislikes. That's why 'salsa' became what it is today, growing from a social dance in the 40s, changing the rhythmic fell and look. I can ASSURE you that for as many folks who saw the seminal dancers of the time doing salsa and were happy for the changes they showed, there were many who said that the new stylists were without 'sabor'; however, these radical dancers are now exalted as visionaries.

"We may have different meanings of hot, like we may have different meanings for good dancing. Actually I'm sure you and I have very different meanings. Let say, there's hot and there's HOT. Sure, I could look at a female dancer and say "she's hot", but I couldn't look at her and say, "she's HOT". There's a sexual tone that to the latter that I couldn't even begin to put into words that you would understand (again, much like the meaning of good dancing)."
 
I wasn't sure if sabor could ever be seen from a still photograph....at least not until seeing that picture of boriken! ;) Very nice.

I just had to post about that. :lol: I'll chime in sometime later with a few other thoughts I've had about sabor (since my last post about a half-dozen pages ago).
I happened to look at that picture because of your post. That is definitely a hot picture!
 
Boriquen,

Gosh I go away for a couple of days and the world falls over...

It is a judgment on the eye of the beholder when the same language isn't spoken. If you don't know Spanish and I prose the most of beautiful of essays you'll get nothing from it. But, if you speak the language, then meaning tells the story. Even if I do not like what's written I can understand its meaning. There must be more than literal translation and understanding of, which is where most opponents of Sabor reside, hence, when they judge Sabor they judge it the only way they can; by their scrutiny of some outside force which has meaning to them.

When a person possesses Sabor it isn’t questioned, it can’t be questioned. Everyone that knows Sabor accepts it! The debate arrives when execution is questioned. Which is the deepest, here members have stressed.

It won't matter if we post a hundred videos with Sabor in the dancers, if the viewer has no idea what to look for, he/she will never make any sense of the words of those who identify it.
Bingo! Another great post of yours! Thanks for stepping back in and bringing us back to the real subject. Kind of missed you in this heated and interesting discussion, thought you had enough of it :)
 
not that i want to be in the middle of this flamewar....

a phrase that comes to mind is "paradigm shift". another that comes to mind is "epiphany". it seems like one of those things that only make sense after you've understood it, but not before - but enough people have gone through the exact same transformation that the generalization of "you too can experience it if you try" seems to be true... also similar to a paradigm shift, you can never convince a person who hasn't experienced this shift that the new paradigm that you are all experience is all that great...
 
it seems like one of those things that only make sense after you've understood it, but not before - but enough people have gone through the exact same transformation that the generalization of "you too can experience it if you try" seems to be true... also similar to a paradigm shift, you can never convince a person who hasn't experienced this shift that the new paradigm that you are all experience is all that great...
Understood it, yes, but you do not necessarily have to have experienced "sabor" in the sense of "having sabor yourself" (don't know if that is what you meant with "experienced"). I don't know if I have (noticeable) sabor, however, I believe I can distinguish it in other people. For sure, I do not have the kind of sabor that I admire in other people who have what I consider sabor. But yes, I have experienced it as a spectator.
 
This is beautifull! In some other post when Boriken came back, he was into poetry and love.

Now:

...just to make a point. You cannot prove reality. Reality just is.
We have philosophy!

I'm loving it! We'll still get to "I live in the matrix because I want to and the matrix is salsa!" :)
 
sabor is when u see/feel the soul has came out to dance..

It is a gift of creation that can be honed by worldly practices.. now wether you like what u see/feel or not or somewhere inbetween is another deal.. but.. u can't help but appreciate it..
 
I've been meaning to chime in on this thread again, mainly about this passage, which goes to the heart of the discussion:
....I strongly believe that I have on average at least as much artistic inclination and musical understanding as any cuban or latin born person. Please don't be another one of those people who buy into the idea that being born latin gives you a license to establish what salsa is and what is not, who is a real dancer and who is not, who has sabor and who has not. Besides, perhaps you would find interesting the history of modern salsa say starting the 50s till now with regards to who had impact on the salsa music as we enjoy it today.
I think the point that salsera_alemana and a few others of us were suggesting is that "sabor" is a Latin term that carries its own unique meaning within that culture. Yes, of course, there are talented dancers from all sorts of ethnic backgrounds. Yes, anybody can say what looks "good" based on his or her own preferences. However, the term "sabor" is almost like a form of slang used by a particular group.

It's like when the term "bad" started to be used a few decades ago as slang among some African-Americans as a positive term -- some things were not merely "good," they were uniquely good in a way that was "baaaad." :cool: Likewise, in the Latin dance culture, many dancers might be "bueno" in their own way, but a select number have "saaaaborrrr." If you are not Latino (I'm not), it helps to have been in an environment where other Latinos are using the term "sabor" to describe a dancer -- which then makes it easier to figure out what a particular dancer is doing differently from the other dancers, in order to deserve that sort of compliment or special recognition. Obviously, based on the many pages within this thread, "sabor" is a very difficult concept to put into written English on the Internet....
 
... the " sabor " and alma y corazon vanished ...

... Someone made the comment- " well many teachers have different levels of learning " or words to that effect. This is wherein lay the problem. % 95 have little or no training in the art of dance and certainly have never been exposed to the finer points ...

... The sadness of it all is this-- the dance in its basic form ( dont care which beat of the bar ) is in and of its self, if danced with all the necessary ingredients , pure magic ...
Simply put, can we say:
dancing with sabor = dancing with "flavour"? = dancing with heart and soul?

From my observation, some instructors seem to dance with their heart and soul, and this also seems to come across in the way they teach.
 

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