Dancing with rhythm vs. with melody

opendoor

Well-Known Member
#1
Just found on YT. Style aside: am really shocked: done him wrong, he actually can either of them. Like it, or not, an outstanding masterpiece.



youtube.com/watch?v=Yqta3wpbzqQ



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still under way, too, but thus, so far away
 

jantango

Active Member
#2
Glad you didn't refer to this performance as tango. That means dancing to tango music.

You can't avoid rhythm, even if you say he's dancing the melody. This is hardly a good example.

I'm still waiting for Chicho to get back to the essence of tango after his statements made in the El Tangauta interview last year.
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
#5
Glad you didn't refer to this performance as tango. That means dancing to tango music.

You can't avoid rhythm, even if you say he's dancing the melody. This is hardly a good example.

I'm still waiting for Chicho to get back to the essence of tango after his statements made in the El Tangauta interview last year.
I view Chicho as one of the milongueros of his generation. His musicality is his best attribute, IMO. Not only stepping on/with the rhythm and/or melody, but he also matches the mood of what he does, to the mood of the music (something an awful lot of good dancers aren't able to do).

Janis, he's done something that I've heard you advocate. He created his own style. There are plenty of nuevo dancers, but none of them do it quite like him. Some of those colgadas he did were brilliant. I'll have to study them and see is some of them can be adapted to fit with my own style (assuming there's the space for them).

While I don't aspire to dance exactly like him, I'd like to be able to do some of the things he does.
 

Peaches

Well-Known Member
#6
I view Chicho as one of the milongueros of his generation. His musicality is his best attribute, IMO. Not only stepping on/with the rhythm and/or melody, but he also matches the mood of what he does, to the mood of the music (something an awful lot of good dancers aren't able to do).

Janis, he's done something that I've heard you advocate. He created his own style. There are plenty of nuevo dancers, but none of them do it quite like him. Some of those colgadas he did were brilliant. I'll have to study them and see is some of them can be adapted to fit with my own style (assuming there's the space for them).

While I don't aspire to dance exactly like him, I'd like to be able to do some of the things he does.
Truth.

What I find interesting is that as "nuevo" as his style is (whatever that means), when it comes down to it, so many of the things that are nuevo are still so fundamental at their core. It's still about controlling the core, and using the free leg, and being responsible for yourself and with your partner, and responding to the music. And, eventually, it all comes down to a combination of steps and pivots.

And, even more fundamentally, it's about connecting with the music and with your partner. He very obviously is connecting with and listening to and dancing in the music...and presumably his partners enjoy it or they wouldn't continue to dance with him.

So...it's still tango.
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
#9
What I find interesting is that as "nuevo" as his style is (whatever that means), when it comes down to it, so many of the things that are nuevo are still so fundamental at their core. It's still about controlling the core, and using the free leg, and being responsible for yourself and with your partner, and responding to the music.
If you mean her then yes, if you mean Chicho - afraid not. It's a clever
open tango-move influenced creatively choreographed partner dance.

And, eventually, it all comes down to a combination of steps and pivots.
Steps and pivots alone a tango dance don't make.
They aren't even the heart of tango.

And, even more fundamentally, it's about connecting with the music and with your partner. He very obviously is connecting with and listening to and dancing in the music...and presumably his partners enjoy it or they wouldn't continue to dance with him.
Yes of course, but that applies to a whole host of partner dances.

So...it's still tango.
So you think that's tango!
Not for me it isn't.

Not the music, not the connection, not the dance and, unfortunately,
not Chicho despite his regrets elsewhere about losing tango.
 

UKDancer

Well-Known Member
#11
While obviously being a performance, rather than social tango, there was much to admire. I particularly liked his interpretation of rhythm from 3:11, into a grapevine and then playing with the music's 3:3:2 accents. I assume that they know the music very well - it's a performance - but I wish I had 1/10th of that rhythmic inventiveness.
 

Peaches

Well-Known Member
#12
While obviously being a performance, rather than social tango, there was much to admire. I particularly liked his interpretation of rhythm from 3:11, into a grapevine and then playing with the music's 3:3:2 accents. I assume that they know the music very well - it's a performance - but I wish I had 1/10th of that rhythmic inventiveness.
Yes. Personally, I was impressed from the beginning, with his interpretation of nothing other than the rhythms of plain speech.
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
#15
Jan, it sounds as if you were afraid of other than traditional social tango styles. You believe they are in competition with the long-established forms. But, I think, it is the other way round instead: they complete each other: there is a much broader and stronger basis with mutual benefit. The younger brother yet protects the older one!

By the way, the Tango Voice article comes to same conclusion
(the new style) relies to a significant degree on movements characteristic of Tango de Salon
and thus keeps it alive!

.
 

Subliminal

Well-Known Member
#16
It's what I call "creative partner dancing" by Argentines who get hired to teach tango at festivals.

This says it all for me. http://tangovoice.wordpress.com/201...ango-tango-nuevo-contact-improvisation-tango/
Ugg. I can't believe I read that whole thing. Talk about a long-winded-stick-up-the-bum-masquerading-as-logic-rant. I could speak volumes about this post, but I think the key point is right near the beginning... the author includes in their definition that tango is only danced to the music of the 30s-50s. In doing so, they have declared their vision of tango is a dead art. It not only insults the modern composers and orchestras, but shows that the definition of tango in the article is forever frozen in time. Tango died in 1950, we are just dancing around the floor with its decaying corpse in tow.

Well, they can certainly say whatever they want. As for me, I am going to gleefully dance around the floor to Jason Mraz's "I'm Yours". Maybe I'll do it nuevo, maybe I'll do it entirely in close embrace with salon/miloguero technique. But I'm going to put my heart into it, and I'm going to call it tango. And I am totally going to enjoy it. So nyaaah. :p
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
#17
Jan, it sounds as if you were afraid of other than traditional social tango styles. You believe they are in competition with the long-established forms. But, I think, it is the other way round instead: they complete each other: there is a much broader and stronger basis with mutual benefit. The younger brother yet protects the older one!

By the way, the Tango Voice article comes to same conclusion and thus keeps it alive!
No, the people who keep it alive are those many dancers in Buenos Aires
who quietly and socially carry on dancing in their milongas and don't
chatter on here. A dance is sustained by its participants and the danger
is actually from the promoters of experimentation. Who knows if there
will be enough dancers in BsAs coming through to the milongas dancing
in the social style to sustain it in the future?

The result of all the show and nuevo influence here is the London Tango
scene which is no way to preserve and continue the tango of all the senses.
In some people's view Nuevo seems to have taken over in Berlin
which was once apparently seen as a bastion of salon and good tango.

It's not helped by teachers who are beginning to blur the accepted, if
invented, meaning of milonguero style to include every type of embrace,
in which they include VU. Of course that suits teachers and promoters
as it broadens their catchment. The counter argument is that if there
were enough people dancing "real" milonguero they wouldn't have to.
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
#19
Ugg. I can't believe I read that whole thing. Talk about a long-winded-stick-up-the-bum-masquerading-as-logic-rant. I could speak volumes about this post, but I think the key point is right near the beginning... the author includes in their definition that tango is only danced to the music of the 30s-50s. In doing so, they have declared their vision of tango is a dead art. It not only insults the modern composers and orchestras, but shows that the definition of tango in the article is forever frozen in time. Tango died in 1950, we are just dancing around the floor with its decaying corpse in tow.
Actually it's a rather coldly dispassionate analysis of the tango scene
and the misuse of the word tango in advertising and teaching.

Yours is the rant and you don't seem to have a constructive answer.

I rather think most of us would be delighted if new "proper" tango music
was written and played.

Well, they can certainly say whatever they want. As for me, I am going to gleefully dance around the floor to Jason Mraz's "I'm Yours". Maybe I'll do it nuevo, maybe I'll do it entirely in close embrace with salon/miloguero technique. But I'm going to put my heart into it, and I'm going to call it tango. And I am totally going to enjoy it. So nyaaah. :p
That of course is your choice. But you and countless others are part of the
problem in the social scene. There are too many styles calling themselves
tango, it's too difficult to find a compatible partner. To go dancing in London
I have to take my own partner and it's a moment of pure joy to find someone
who actually knows what milonguero is and enters the embrace completely.

And what's worse is the (im)practical mix of styles on the floor.
Chaos results at times, entraga certainly doesn't. But of course everyone
who does nuevo and the like, even salon, claim they don't bump into people.

But they are selfish styles in being selfish of floor space, not just the space
they occupy but the incredibly long stationary periods blocking the floor
and vacating the space ahead of them. Anyone whose wise also gives such
partnerships a wide berth in order to avoid the flying heels. That's more
dance space abused and selfishly occupied.

Now that's a rant!
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
#20
@JEm think we have to enable 75% of new and contemporary styles to keep alive 25% of what you seek. By the way, when shall we meet in Berlin?

@sub link added http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlYxmJ6IP5Q
Do you know opendoor, I rather wish that I could see your logic being
successful. But there is very little evidence of it being a source of new
BsAs social style dancing. We are in the era of flashy fusion dances and,
at the other extreme, dumbing down of dances.

The real answer is lots more people dancing (any dance) and somehow
I don't think that's going to happen in this era of passive entertainment.

Berlin is somewhere I'd love to visit, maybe I shall. It would be appropriate
to (motor)bike over on the BMW don't you think? Tango would add to the
experience obviously.

However I was chatting to one of your compatriots recently and as very
much a traditionalist he was quite depressed about the state of tango in
Berlin. And I rather got the impression that a fellow poster of yours is too.
 

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