Effects of Dancing with an Excellent Follow

tj

New Member
#21
HF said:
In consequence I hardly ever ask them for a dance. Not such a problem to me because usually I can dance for hours with other ladies. But still ...

Am I the only one that experienced that?
This is the case for me as well. Attitude is much more important than skill level for me. (But I shall refrain from saying more since aimerrouge started this topic asking about the benefits of dancing with a more advanced follow.)
 
#22
in ballroom, where i am less advanced, i sometimes practice with a more advanced leader and i know he gets a lot out of testing his lead on me. i am so grateful that i can return the favor to him - he worked with me when i was just starting out and extremely nervous, so it feels like a great privilege to pay him back in some small way.
 
#23
tj said:
... (But I shall refrain from saying more since aimerrouge started this topic asking about the benefits of dancing with a more advanced follow.)
Hey! I'm back! :p

HF said:
...Is it just me or does anybody else sometimes feel uncomfortable with those ladies that are "really really good dancers" in terms that they have been dancing for years and have been to many workshops and festivals?

... I try to lead according to the music as much as I can and if I feel that a lady wants to be entertained I can dance two or three songs without any repetition.

...They have been dancing with the best of the best. This has been their fix and and this is what they want now for the rest of their life. And when little me dances with them they will look a little bit bored because they know every trick I know - and many more.

...

Am I the only one that experienced that?
:!: This is what I was attempting to address but couldn't figure out how. However, I thought that if enough leads posted this would come up far more eloquently than I could say it. In my scene, many intermediate leads, with limited repatoires only dance with the advanced ladies. I've state previously the ladies do tolerate this, but sometimes you can tell they don't enjoy the dance as much as the intermediate lead would like them to.

The posts here suggest to me that you intermediate leads are very accomodating to the attitudes/or dance styles of the advanced ladies, because they're advanced.

:?: Are you as accomodating to the intermediate follows, assuming you dance with them at all?
 

tj

New Member
#24
aimerrouge said:
tj said:
... (But I shall refrain from saying more since aimerrouge started this topic asking about the benefits of dancing with a more advanced follow.)
Hey! I'm back! :p
Welcome back!

:?: Are you as accomodating to the intermediate follows, assuming you dance with them at all?
Yes, I am, at least.

Sometimes, I think I may be the exception rather than the rule. Several of my favorite dancers have been complaining over the past few months about not getting asked enough. Personally, I think this has more to do with the ratio than anything else.

I really mean it when I say that I prefer a good attitude/demeanor over skill. Otherwise, I'd be spending my entire night dancing with the spin happy Follows.
 

Sagitta

Well-Known Member
#25
If you are more advanced shouldn't you help the leader by being more accomodating, rather then the other way around?

Tunnels aren't done that often in my scene and whoever does it gets a surprised look from the advanced salsera.
 

tj

New Member
#26
On this current train of thought:

To you Advanced Follows out there, who find yourselves with an ever shrinking pool of dancers that you like to dance with...

Is it possible for you to take an Intermediate Lead under your wing? Teach him what you like, including proper technique, favorite things, etc. Nurture him into being the kind of dancer that you love to dance with.

Some may forget you as he advances in skill. I believe most will not.

(and if you are capable of doing this, and he forgets about you, why not go ahead and make another fabulous lead)
 

Vin

New Member
#28
I like to dance with those people who I enjoy dancing with who give me the impression that they enjoy dancing with me. I appreciate any and all feedback that I get, even if sometimes that feedback comes from "beginners" and especially if it comes from advanced dancers.

Anyone who consistently gives me a bad attitude, be it a beginner, intermediate, or advanced dancer, will not get asked to dance very often from me. I will admit that if I find a woman attractive I am more apt to forgive a past indiscretion or two on her part.

Of those who do have a good attitude I will also admit to being partial to those that I enjoy dancing with more.
 

HF

New Member
#29
tj said:
On this current train of thought:

... Is it possible for you to take an Intermediate Lead under your wing?
Yesss ... this is what I always say ... if you want to have a proper dancing counterpart, then make one instead of waiting for one.

I did the same thing with two ladies. Pampered them practically from zero, taught them everything I know, took them to privates to teachers and have really good dancing partners now. It took some patience but I probably learned most by training these two ladies alternating ...

Many people don't want to invest, just harvest ... I have sometimes but hardly ever seen an advanced lady building up a guy in the salsa scene. Perhaps it is not really possible this way - how should he develop a "macho attitude" then?
 

Vin

New Member
#30
I am this case, I am a lead brought up(and still being brought up) by alot of the best follows in the scene.

Alot of times there is something that they know doesn't seem right but they can't explain it. In that case they get an advanced lead to help explain what is going wrong.
 
#31
I would say NO. You want some1 that doesn't know your combo all to well. I've danced with a lot of professional women that can compensate for my MISTAKES. When they do that I don't know how I can correct them, becuase they Rn't evident to me. If a girl can explain how I can make my patern EZier for them to follow than I ACTUALLY LEARN! As in the case with my PROTOGE, "Mama Salsera". I tell her to just do what she feels I want her to do. If the end result isn't what I want. Then I ask her what makes her do what I don't want her to do. She xplains, and I adjust my LEAD. I try to do this very often at the clubs. The patterns that Rn't followed WELL, I work on em then very next day.

Hope that HELPS.
 
#32
Interesting...

Are non-advanced ladies just not on your radar? Why should an advanced follow take you under her wing, if in so doing, you ignore every lady who isn't advanced on the floor? Why can't 2 beginners, 2 intermediates or some combination grow together in dance?

The ladies on this scene agree that it is not proper etiquette to occupy the entire evening/class time of an advanced leader. (Not that I can think of one advanced leader who would tolerate it.)

It seems different here. You guys seems to think advanced ladies should be "building up a guy." Am I wrong?
 

tj

New Member
#33
aimerrouge said:
Interesting...

Are non-advanced ladies just not on your radar?
Hmm, I'm mostly talking about advanced ladies due to the topic. I suppose the same applies for intermediates teaching beginners. And you could even switch the genders around.

Why should an advanced follow take you under her wing, if in so doing, you ignore every lady who isn't advanced on the floor? Why can't 2 beginners, 2 intermediates or some combination grow together in dance?
Are we talking about the same thing? I'm talking about the more experienced dancer giving feedback/instructions/nurturing (in a nice way, not a condescending one) to a less experienced dancer.

There's nothing wrong with two equal ability dancers "growing up together". I think that's great and is what happens the majority of the time. There's nothing wrong with an advanced lead improving a folllow, for that matter, either.

The ladies on this scene agree that it is not proper etiquette to occupy the entire evening/class time of an advanced leader. (Not that I can think of one advanced leader who would tolerate it.)
Yes, I agree that this is bad. I don't think anyone should be hogged all night, unless the two of you have romantic intentions. And even then... the two of you should still dance with others...

It seems different here. You guys seems to think advanced ladies should be "building up a guy." Am I wrong?
This only applies if an advanced lady is finding herself with a lack of leads to dance with.

As long as you're satisfied with your current dance experience, why change anything?

Hope this clarifies what I'm saying...
 
#35
tj, don't feel lost.

I am an intermediate follow who has noticed some things on her scene and thought she'd throw a question out there. I was truly just curious to what leaders have to say on this subject.

I believe that if I were to ask this question to the guys on my scene it wouldn't go over well, so I asked here.

:D
 

HF

New Member
#36
@ aimerrouge

Non-advanced ladies are very much on my radar. My radar is full of them :shock: . I try to dance at least with two unknown beginner ladies per evening to "do my duty" :D, sometimes much more. And a lot, lot, lot with intermediate followers.

But you asked about advanced.

Life is not just black and white and so I have to say that sometimes it is a real pleasure for me (intermediate) to dance with a highly advanced lady. This happened e. g. at a salsa festival when I asked a lady passing her from behind. So when I began to dance I realized that she just had been performing on stage ... if I knew that before I would not have asked her.

When we began to dance I noticed that her moves were so f i n e even in basic CBL - decent, very rhythmic, with elastic tension ... that I am still impressed after nearly a year, and I think this has been a chance to learn very much ... in just one dance.

Are we back on topic now? :twisted: :D :wink:
 
#37
I don't know about dancing with an excellent follow, but I do love watching them. Sometimes I learn, and even if not, I always get inspired. It's even more fun to watch a good lead dance the follow's part because then I get to observe something about how the men perceive following. Explains some things about their leads sometimes! :shock: :lol:
 

Vin

New Member
#38
I think I see where this is conversation going(or has gone)

I try and dance with everyone I can regardless of skill level. I do have a couple of favorites who i dance with more than a couple of times and there are some who I tend to stay away from. That has less to do with skill level than with attitude.
 
#39
:) I am considered an advanced salsera in my city (and I'm also an instructor). Therefore let me tell you I don't get asked too much! :(

Still, I started laughing last night when one of my advanced students (who is unfortunately always dancing with his partner and very rarely switches) invited me to dance... he seemed a bit lost, so I asked what the problem was. He said that I spin so fast that I give him the impression he has too much time between the moves and he doesn't know what he is doing wrong! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I thought it was funny... yes, I do spin fast... but in my opinion I am very slow (I compare myself to top world salseras - which is probably a mistake)... Then I realised he's so used to dancing to his partner that he cannot adjust really well... he was throwing me off balance all the time! And this was because his partner is heavier than I am (in terms of leading) so he needs to sort of push her around. Also, I never rely on the guy to spin me... I do it myself, when he leads it... his partner cannot do it on her own very well... I tried and explained him what I thought, he looked puzzled and I think I got him thinking...

I very rarely dance with advanced salseras as a leader... but when I do, I like it! They are very smooth and easy to lead... the reason I don't dance with them so often is 'cause I think I don't know enough moves and they will be bored...
 
#40
HF said:
Is it just me or does anybody else sometimes feel uncomfortable with those ladies that are "really really good dancers" in terms that they have been dancing for years and have been to many workshops and festivals?
That description sounds to me just like an average advanced lady, not anything special. Unless they're a top professional dancer/performer. Advanced means different things to different people. Try to relax, forget about how good she is and concentrate on what you do best and how best to make the dance smooth, musical and fun for the both of you.

When I went to my first UK congress last year I danced with the performers from Tropical Gem for most of the congress and we had fun together. Yet I am intermediate-advanced. If I allowed myself to think about who they were, the dances would have been crap and not repeated.

Extend your attitude and personality to everything you do in your dancing - the smallest move. Eventually it will pay off big time.

HF said:
I will try to explain: I am an intermediate salsa dancer still but most ladies, even advanced, say that they enjoy my lead. I try to lead according to the music as much as I can and if I feel that a lady wants to be entertained I can dance two or three songs without any repetition. Also sometimes I "fake" moves to make the ladies laugh. All that works up to a certain level.
Sounds to me like you're on the right track, just keep working on the same thing, especially the dancing to the music. Once you get your leading to an advanced level then "dancing to the music" is what will differentiate you from an average dancer to a really good dancer.

HF said:
But there are few ladies that are hard to please. They have been dancing with the best of the best. This has been their fix and and this is what they want now for the rest of their life. And when little me dances with them they will look a little bit bored because they know every trick I know - and many more.
You will get ladies like this at every level. It means nothing about your dancing. Remember, solid smooth leading and dancing to the music. This is what will make them interested in the end. Tricks are interesting once.

HF said:
One lady that I know is an excellent dancer and has been giving workshops herself. But she will do a lot of arm styling which will make it difficult to lead her.
If she's doing lots of styling which gets in the way of your leading then she's not advanced in my book. I've danced with lots of early-intermediates with this problem and one or two advanced salseras too who have the latest styling move which completely blocks one of your standard leads. Mildly annoying, funny, but not unusual. You won't find any of the truely advanced or professional followers doing that.

HF said:
Also she will love to dance open shines to more extensively express herself. It feels as if basically she does her thing, no matter what I do and does not really seem interested in partnering.
Well its either an attitude problem or she's still in the experimental stage where she's so concentrated on doing her shines that she can't concentrate on where the next lead is coming from as well. That will pass eventually.

HF said:
Another lady, also excellent, will sometimes even not follow my lead intentionally.

One more lady I know will look very concentrated and correct me during the song or immediately after the end. She will never smile or anyhow give the impression to me that she is enjoying anything I do.
What do you think is excellent about someone who can't follow and criticises your dancing? I would have blacklisted them after the second time, given them a cooling off period, try again a few weeks later, if it happens again then don't dance with them for months. In my opinion a good intermediate who follows really smoothly and is fun is much better than someone who can't or won't follow. Note: I do dance with a lot of beginners and intermediates. Theirs is not an attitude problem, just a learning one.

HF said:
After one song those three will say "thank you" and go back to their place. And some will keep standing there for a long time, dancing by themselves, because there will not be many guys that feel prepared ...
....to be insulted. No wonder they're dancing on their own! :lol:
 

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