El Choclo: A Musical Analysis

#41
Here's a clip of Chicho. I'd describe the dancing as somewhat frenetic. Not what I would do, but you have to give the big guy credit for stamina. And musicality. Watch those feet!

 
#42
I will identify the phrases in the Garden Quartet version by minute:second when I get a chance.

Thank you - it must be frustrating but it will give me another way - but I will take on-board that I must try and trust my ears!

Edited

"By George she's got it" - well heard the 16-bar phrasing all the way through the Garden Quartet clip. Even recognised a few of the things mentioned in TM's posts.
 
#43
Thank you - it must be frustrating but it will give me another way - but I will take on-board that I must try and trust my ears!

Edited

"By George she's got it" - well heard the 16-bar phrasing all the way through the Garden Quartet clip. Even recognised a few of the things mentioned in TM's posts.
Congrats! It does get easier...
 
#44
Perhaps at some point I'll discuss the differences between Villoldo's original intentions (played most closely by the Garden Quartet), and how Firpo, D'Arienzo, and Di Sarli interpret the piece.

Here's Di Sarli.:
 

Gssh

Well-Known Member
#47
Perhaps at some point I'll discuss the differences between Villoldo's original intentions (played most closely by the Garden Quartet), and how Firpo, D'Arienzo, and Di Sarli interpret the piece.
If you have time, please do this - i keep thinking that one of the things that distinguishes the great interpretations from others is that are the result of the feedback loop between the dancers and the orchestras when they were playing every day and it was their job to keep the dancefloor happy. I have no background in musical theory, so it would be really exciting to me to have somebody who had that background talk about what exactly they did to create the specific sound and mood that distinguishes them from each other.


Gssh
 
#48
If you have time, please do this - i keep thinking that one of the things that distinguishes the great interpretations from others is that are the result of the feedback loop between the dancers and the orchestras when they were playing every day and it was their job to keep the dancefloor happy. I have no background in musical theory, so it would be really exciting to me to have somebody who had that background talk about what exactly they did to create the specific sound and mood that distinguishes them from each other.


Gssh
Good point...
 
#49
This performance matches almost exactly what Villoldo wrote. There is an intro but it is not the one we have. The sections are played A-B-C-A-C. Habanera 1 is in the bass all the way through, as Villoldo wrote it, and the melody line is very faithfully played too.

Quite simple compared to Firpo (although he is quite close to Villoldo), D'Arienzo and Di Sarli, isn't it?

Havana Society Dance Orchestra (From the mid-1930s):
 
#50
Appreciate that this is a off-shoot, but why did I GET IT when I had absolutely no idea what it was I was getting!

Maybe I need to think of this in a different way ......

I now have a structure which gives MEANING to what I've always heard (and danced). This is really, really exciting........


Going back to the first sentence...... why was it so instinctive?
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
#51
Appreciate that this is a off-shoot, but why did I GET IT when I had absolutely no idea what it was I was getting!

Maybe I need to think of this in a different way ......

I now have a structure which gives MEANING to what I've always heard (and danced). This is really, really exciting........


Going back to the first sentence...... why was it so instinctive?
It's hard to know why, but some people get (or feel) music, and some people don't. Probably the only thing new you learned, was a way to define or describe what you already knew at a subconscious level.
 
#52
I shudder to think what any of you must be like in bed; though I am certain any calculations defining the act would be correct. Makes me cry, but not with joy.
 
#53
I shudder to think what any of you must be like in bed; though I am certain any calculations defining the act would be correct. Makes me cry, but not with joy.
Well thanks for jumping in and dumbing down the discussion.

Others have commented about your posts before and suggested that since you find everything that goes on in the forum a waste of time, perhaps you would be kind enough to create a post or two and share your insights and brilliance with the rest of us.

And thanks for discrediting about 40 years of my life.
 
#54
Others have commented about your posts before and suggested that since you find everything that goes on in the forum a waste of time, perhaps you would be kind enough to create a post or two and share your insights and brilliance with the rest of us.
At your invitation I will respond to your comment. I do not find 'everything' on this forum is a waste of time; nevertheless much of it is. More to the point, I do not consider your posts a waste of time, though the discussion was, in my opinion more than a bit cold and calculating.

Nor do I remember ever having made claim to brilliance though I have shared my opinions, and yes, even my insights. It is one thing to know, and another thing to feel. I am a dancer, and I believe dance is art. I have seen art too often reduced to the cold logic of quantity and shape and arrangement. One day I will no doubt see a machine compute the perfect steps to the perfect arrangement, but it will not be Tango.

And thanks for discrediting about 40 years of my life.
Really? Are you serious? Confidence is essential in Tango. Only you can discredit 40 years of your life.
 
#55
At your invitation I will respond to your comment. I do not find 'everything' on this forum is a waste of time; nevertheless much of it is. More to the point, I do not consider your posts a waste of time, though the discussion was, in my opinion more than a bit cold and calculating.

Really? Are you serious? Confidence is essential in Tango. Only you can discredit 40 years of your life.
This from my earlier post #40:
Once you really know the version I've been analyzing you'll be ready for whatever gets thrown at you. You will enjoy noticing the differences and appreciate them. In other words, you will have the music so within you, you will dance musically no matter how the particular band is interpreting the music.

Sounds like a worthy goal. And I am there. Ask my followers.

A forum poster can't discredit my life, but you did (attempt to) discredit my life's work. I am a musicologist with a real degree BTW. One gets tired of repeated snide, condescending posts when little of value is offered in exchange. If you have indeed posted otherwise in this forum please provide some links. I'll quickly apologize if I am wrong in being so blunt towards you.

Edit: Added (attempt to) since MN cannot discredit my life's work per se, or the field of musicology. NOW I AM DONE.
 
#56
the discussion was, in my opinion more than a bit cold and calculating
You're a follower, aren't you? If so, you get to hold onto your illusions that tango is some sort of romantic melding of two souls as they're transported to another time and place, moving as one to the lush mournful strains of the bandoneon.

Leaders, on the other hand, have to do all the cold, hard, calculated analysis.

I'm reminded of the quip about how when art critics get together, they talk about Form and Meaning and Style. When artists get together, they talk about where the cheapest brushes and paints can be had.
 
#58
Just some quick comments on the value of analysis...and why followers should encourage leaders to do more of it.

As a leader I will never get to enjoy closing my eyes and getting lost in the embrace and the music. If you expect me to give you that "tango bliss", then I need to study the music. It has to be embedded deep witin me. I get there through analysis.

There are many levels of analysis. Just listening attentively and noticing, for example, Di Sarli sounds diffferent here than Firpo, or thinking "I really like how D'Arienzo elaborates the melody here" is analysis. What I presented was the extreme end, and takes specialized knowledge. (But it is not beyond the abilities of an averge person willing to learn). I do a great deal of the active listening type, very little of the bar by bar, note by note type. But I must say doing the full-pull analysis provides an intellectual satisfaction that has its own pleasure, and it does provide a deeper understanding.


Should I talk about El Choclo as performed by Firpo, Di Sarli, D'Arienzo or not? (Or others?) I'm willing if there is interest from the members. (I will compare their playing of Section A).
 

AndaBien

Well-Known Member
#59
...I do not find 'everything' on this forum is a waste of time; nevertheless much of it is. More to the point, I do not consider your posts a waste of time, though the discussion was, in my opinion more than a bit cold and calculating...
It would probably be more informative for the rest of us if you were to attack comments you disagree with, rather than the people who made them.
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#60
You're a follower, aren't you? If so, you get to hold onto your illusions that tango is some sort of romantic melding of two souls as they're transported to another time and place, moving as one to the lush mournful strains of the bandoneon..Leaders, on the other hand, have to do all the cold, hard, calculated analysis.

in the book I'm reading (Aleph bravo Tango) there is an episode where a follower has the most wonderful, moving intimate connected dance and the man is totally unaware and feels nothing. Totally why-women-cant-read-maps-and-men-dont-listen


I'm reminded of the quip about how when art critics get together, they talk about Form and Meaning and Style. When artists get together, they talk about where the cheapest brushes and paints can be had.
tangueras talk about Cifs and tangueros..I have no idea what they talk about, I'm too busy dancing....
 

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