Feel of a lead vs variety. Sensitive follows vs those who need more.

toothlesstiger

Well-Known Member
#61
If dance technique is as PD says, I should expect to see a lot more variation in top pros than is seen. The body needs to do what it needs to do in order to achieve that kinetic result. How it is explained, how people think of it, may vary from person to person, because words are a poor map to kinesthetics, but the end result is pretty consistent.
 
#63
By all means, please support your assertion by giving me two different definitions of swing and sway.

And, (1) having a different way to achieve the same thing, or (2) finding the same thing more/less important, do not mean that there is a different definition for the same thing.
Well, just using the dictionary definitions from the words "swing" and "sway," minus the not-applicable cases, we already get confusion as to what the words mean in dance...

SWING:

intransitive verb
1
: to move freely to and fro especially in suspension from an overhead support
2
: to move in or describe a circle or arc: a : to turn on a hinge or pivot b : to turn in place c : to convey oneself by grasping a fixed support <swing aboard the train>
4
a : to have a steady pulsing rhythm b : to play or sing with a lively compelling rhythm; specifically : to play swing music
5
: to shift or fluctuate from one condition, form, position, or object of attention or favor to another <swing constantly from optimism to pessimism and back — Sinclair Lewis>
6
a : to move along rhythmically b : to start up in a smooth vigorous manner <ready to swing into action>



SWAY:

intransitive verb
1
a : to swing slowly and rhythmically back and forth from a base or pivot b : to move gently from an upright to a leaning position
3
: to fluctuate or veer between one point, position, or opinion and another



Would you like to tell us what your definitions are?


I don't even need to get into the "specialized" usage of these words in dance, which involves timing, positioning, etc..
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
#65
Joe said:
..timing, swing, and shape.
Sorry Joe, my english isn´t that nuanced, thus my question: you mean musicality, flow, posture?
Not precisely. By "timing," I meant the times at which various actions occur, which I suppose you could lump into "musicality." Swing is not flow, it's well, swing--how the shapes (not necessarily posture) are created.
Timing may be a problem only for beginners. I will hope experienced dancers will play with their timing and override it where applicable. So, to include all the latter possibilities I prefer speaking of musicality.

What you call swing I would call styling. My concept meets most of PD´s definitions. It´s kind of a transfer or interpretation of music and rhythm into the space of the dance floor.
 

dbk

Well-Known Member
#66
Well, just using the dictionary definitions from the words "swing" and "sway," minus the not-applicable cases, we already get confusion as to what the words mean in dance...

SWING:

intransitive verb
1
: to move freely to and fro especially in suspension from an overhead support
2
: to move in or describe a circle or arc: a : to turn on a hinge or pivot b : to turn in place c : to convey oneself by grasping a fixed support <swing aboard the train>
4
a : to have a steady pulsing rhythm b : to play or sing with a lively compelling rhythm; specifically : to play swing music
5
: to shift or fluctuate from one condition, form, position, or object of attention or favor to another <swing constantly from optimism to pessimism and back — Sinclair Lewis>
6
a : to move along rhythmically b : to start up in a smooth vigorous manner <ready to swing into action>



SWAY:

intransitive verb
1
a : to swing slowly and rhythmically back and forth from a base or pivot b : to move gently from an upright to a leaning position
3
: to fluctuate or veer between one point, position, or opinion and another



Would you like to tell us what your definitions are?


I don't even need to get into the "specialized" usage of these words in dance, which involves timing, positioning, etc..

The dictionary definitions and the ballroom definitions are two entirely different things. That's like pulling up the dictionary definition of "feather" and saying "hey, there's no one way to do a feather step!"

Again - you're not going to prove your point without providing two different (BALLROOM DANCE) definitions of swing and sway. I am not here to prove your point for you. That's your job.
 

toothlesstiger

Well-Known Member
#67
Sway has an authoritative definition, from The Ballroom Technique (the gray book).

"Sway is normally the inclination of the body away from the moving foot and towards the inside of the turn--e.g. step 2 of Waltz Natural Turn."

For my own definition, in standard dances, swing occurs when the body is moving as though it were pendulum, attached at the head, the bob at the feet, allowing the dancer on the outside of the turn to swing past their partner while maintaining connection.

What other standard dance specific definitions are there?
 
#68
Sway has an authoritative definition, from The Ballroom Technique (the gray book).

"Sway is normally the inclination of the body away from the moving foot and towards the inside of the turn--e.g. step 2 of Waltz Natural Turn."
Well, here's already a point of contention. The "more
general" definition I've heard is that sway is the inclination
of the body against the direction of travel. When a baseball
player slides into base, there is certainly "sway" but no
turn. There are tons of movements in dance that contain
no "turn" (as in weaving-type maneuvers) but have "sliding
action." Or a dancer can "lean" and create sway and simply
"resolve" the sway by standing erect, without ever turning.
A dancer could also have started the sway with the intention
of subsequently turning, but aborts the turning part, possibly
because of floorcraft reasons.

There are many other "leaning" actions that may or may not
be considered "swaying," depending on the perspective of
the observer or performer.

The Ballroom Technique is only "authoritative" for the
believers of its religion, although it's certainly a good start.
 
#70
Again - you're not going to prove your point without providing two different (BALLROOM DANCE) definitions of swing and sway. I am not here to prove your point for you. That's your job.
There's nothing to prove, as it's just my opinion, in
which you may or may not find merit. As in the courts
(of opinion?), all it takes is reasonable doubt.

Two "definitions" of sway, as used in dance, are already
discussed in another post.

Similarly, swing (in dance) could be lots of things. Do
you consider the "swing" in ECS, in Jive, in Foxtrot, etc.,
the same entity? Do you think Chacha, Bolero, or Night Club
Two Step (smooth or rhythm versions) have "swing" in their
basic patterns?

Do you think there is a "suspension from overhead support"
in the (whatever) swing used in dance? Is there (always)
an "arc" around some "hinge" or "pivot?" Where are these
"hinge" or "pivot" if you believe these exist? Does the
"arc" mean there has to be "rise and fall?" Does a swing
have to be related with "shift or fluctuate from one condition,
form, position, or object of attention or favor to another"
and "to move along rhythmically," or are these factors
inconsequential to your definition?

When we get into details, simple definitions often/usually
fall apart.
 

Joe

Well-Known Member
#71
Must we be so granular? Would you prefer to get into the details of the type of swing used in step 2 of the waltz natural turn and how it differs with the swing used in step 2 of the reverse turn?
 
#72
Must we be so granular? Would you prefer to get into the details of the type of swing used in step 2 of the waltz natural turn and how it differs with the swing used in step 2 of the reverse turn?
Well, of course it depends on how you look at dance and
movement, and how analytical you want or have to be.

There was an assertion that although most dance terminology
are highly subjective, somehow the terms "swing" and
"sway" were special and were easily defined and understood
by all. I'm not of that opinion about these two terms.

As one poster noted, while one dancer may consider a
particular action a "swing" movement, another might
consider it to be shaping or styling. But, this is the general
characteristic of language and communication anyway.

There are some that think instructors teach substantially
the "same" things and "top" dancers move substantially
the "same" ways, and some that think the opposite.
From the macroscopic level, everything is alike. From
the microscopic level, the differences are striking.
 

danceronice

Well-Known Member
#73
If that last post is true then there is no point in having judges, or this forum. Because if you are going to insist that there are no generally-accepted definitions, no discussion or communication is possible, at least not in any meaningful way.
 

Partner Dancer

Well-Known Member
#75
If that last post is true then there is no point in having judges, or this forum. Because if you are going to insist that there are no generally-accepted definitions, no discussion or communication is possible, at least not in any meaningful way./quote]

Well, of course it depends on how you look at dance and
movement, and how analytical you want or have to be.

There was an assertion that although most dance terminology
are highly subjective, somehow the terms "swing" and
"sway" were special and were easily defined and understood
by all. I'm not of that opinion about these two terms.

As one poster noted, while one dancer may consider a
particular action a "swing" movement, another might
consider it to be shaping or styling. But, this is the general
characteristic of language and communication anyway.

There are some that think instructors teach substantially
the "same" things and "top" dancers move substantially
the "same" ways, and some that think the opposite.
From the macroscopic level, everything is alike. From
the microscopic level, the differences are striking.
Interesting that your interpretation of my statements made
before, as pasted above, which I believe and intended to
convey "it's up to you" or "there are differing opinions" to
mean "I insist on a viewpoint" (of there being no commonality).
This interpretation, of itself, already demonstrates the problem
of agreement.

The Republicans and Democrats _choose_ to create (artificial)
issues to inject disagreements to further their own selfish
causes. Most of the posters in this forum probably don't
have much agenda to push, beyond just stating their
opinions and sampling the opinions of others.
 

toothlesstiger

Well-Known Member
#76
Considering that multiple posters are interpreting your comments this way, if it was not your intent, then that is not getting across. "The meaning of your communication is the response you get."

Again, back to doi's point, and your response, if it's "up to you", then on what basis can dance competitions be judged? If there is not a common understanding of good technique and good artistry, then it is difficult to understand how competitions can even happen.
 

Larinda McRaven

Site Moderator
Staff member
#77
Must we be so granular? Would you prefer to get into the details of the type of swing used in step 2 of the waltz natural turn and how it differs with the swing used in step 2 of the reverse turn?
lol... we used to actually have these discussions around here...
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
#78
Partner Dancer said:
As one poster noted, while one dancer may consider a
particular action a "swing" movement, another might
consider it to be shaping or styling. But, this is the general
characteristic of language and communication anyway.

There are some that think instructors teach substantially
the "same" things and "top" dancers move substantially
the "same" ways, and some that think the opposite.
From the macroscopic level, everything is alike. From
the microscopic level, the differences are striking.
...if you are going to insist that there are no generally-accepted definitions, no discussion or communication is possible, at least not in any meaningful way.
Interesting that your interpretation of my statements made
before, as pasted above, which I believe and intended to
convey "it's up to you" or "there are differing opinions" to
mean "I insist on a viewpoint" (of there being no commonality).
This interpretation, of itself, already demonstrates the problem
of agreement.....
Concerning me who is writing in a foreign language Partner Dancer´s concepts seem to be much closer to my own, not concerning words as swing, sway, or styling, but in the sense of constructiveness, responsibility and autonomy in/for one´s own development. Perhaps it also may have got to do something how someone deals with authority (say-so), too?
 

danceronice

Well-Known Member
#79
Concerning me who is writing in a foreign language Partner Dancer´s concepts seem to be much closer to my own, not concerning words as swing, sway, or styling, but in the sense of constructiveness, responsibility and autonomy in/for one´s own development. Perhaps it also may have got to do something how someone deals with authority (say-so), too?
Or someone who doesn't place the way they think they should or who has proven authorities tell them they're wrong, therefore they argue it's all subjective and no one's view is more right than anything else in an attempt to make it impossible to argue with them. Very common tantrum in judged sports and with "artists" who feel their alleged genius is unappreciated.

IME that's usually the case, at least.
 

toothlesstiger

Well-Known Member
#80
Getting even more basic on this, if there is not a standard set of techniques and movements that can be identified as belonging to a particular dance, there is nothing to teach. For that matter, I wonder how partner dancing could occur at all, if the leader and the follower both do whatever they like...
 

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