Horacio & Cecilia

opendoor

Well-Known Member
#21
Think the best in their dancing is, that THEY dance. Cecilia with her experimental and unconventual approach kind of frees Horacio´s genius. For me his dancing before got a touch of academic. What I see is really authentic, in respect of every style! A completiv dance partner is such a piece of luck for both, in general.




Warming up at LaVirtuta http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuVoxWVSl3U
 

Peaches

Well-Known Member
#22
Mock:...to mimic, imitate, or counterfeit.
It was in reference to the dancing.
Thanks so much. IMO, there still isn't anything "mock," in that clip. The dancing is real, genuine, and skillful. I neither see it making fun of any one, or AT, nor is it an imitation.
 

Me

New Member
#24
Okay... so I guess I am going to find myself perpetually puzzled by both the dancing and the discussion. :)

But, I do agree with Peaches. I don't see anything "mock" about the performance.
 
#25
Okay... so I guess I am going to find myself perpetually puzzled by both the dancing and the discussion. :)

But, I do agree with Peaches. I don't see anything "mock" about the performance.
Ditto. It's a superb piece of dancing.

Yes Im not sure who Horacio danced with before Cecilia. I know on the other hand that she was/is also a partner of Santiago Dorkas. Now he is weird and experimental. Check out the YT videos under Senor Dorkas.
 

Me

New Member
#26
Check out the YT videos under Senor Dorkas.
[yt]C4hFnVtgD9M[/yt]

Um, okay. Wow. What is up with those Hammer pants? (Not even gonna' address the hoodie.)

See, now I'm too busy wondering if he dressed in the dark before the performance to even notice his dancing. :)

She does hit some nice lines, however.

(Still not even gonna' address the hoodie.)
 

jantango

Active Member
#27
The tango business

In the world of tango with a constant stream of festivals, teachers have the notion they must come up with something new and different to entertain the audience. If it's a tango festival, why are they doing this crazy stuff that is only giving many the impression that they should try it, too. There are many who don't question it and just follow blindly because "my teacher does it this way." I thought dancers attend a festival to improve their tango dancing. Shouldn't the teachers show them their best dancing?

Horacio and many other dancers are reaching their 40s. They seem to be holding on to their youth by showing they can still come up with outrageous things and call it tango. Cecelia may have dance training, but it doesn't appear she knows much about tango nor does she have any respect for it.

Horacio presents himself as one who appreciates the older generation of tango dancers. If so, then why doesn't he demonstrate it in his dancing?

I stopped in one night to see a friend at class in La Viruta. It was a three-ring circus. Small groups with couples teaching sequences of salon tango to memorize. No one knew how to embrace or listen to the music--if there was any playing it couldn't be heard. Afterwards, all the teachers did a demo of nuevo tango to other music.
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#28
In the world of tango with a constant stream of festivals, teachers have the notion they must come up with something new and different to entertain the audience. If it's a tango festival, why are they doing this crazy stuff that is only giving many the impression that they should try it, too. There are many who don't question it and just follow blindly because "my teacher does it this way." I thought dancers attend a festival to improve their tango dancing. Shouldn't the teachers show them their best dancing?

Horacio and many other dancers are reaching their 40s. They seem to be holding on to their youth by showing they can still come up with outrageous things and call it tango. Cecelia may have dance training, but it doesn't appear she knows much about tango nor does she have any respect for it.

Horacio presents himself as one who appreciates the older generation of tango dancers. If so, then why doesn't he demonstrate it in his dancing?

I stopped in one night to see a friend at class in La Viruta. It was a three-ring circus. Small groups with couples teaching sequences of salon tango to memorize. No one knew how to embrace or listen to the music--if there was any playing it couldn't be heard. Afterwards, all the teachers did a demo of nuevo tango to other music.
what ageist claptrap. I'm nearly 50 and I can still do a cartwheel and a handstand
and I like to dance nuevo and milonguero. and one of my favourite dancers has a stronger core and better balance and more energy than dancers 20 years younger than her.
As the poem goes

"You are old, father William," the young man said,
"And your hair has become very white;
And yet you incessantly stand on your head
Do you think, at your age, it is right?
The Young Man said

"In my youth," father William replied to his son,
"I feared it might injure the brain;
But, now that I'm perfectly sure I have none,
Why, I do it again and again."



secondly I agree with whassisname above that none of this is invention; its more about going back to how tango/canjengue was danced with a bit of spice and energy; go and look at the stone soup videos on youtube this is how be creative and playful whilst dancing tango.

Please shoot me when I get too old to dance like this!
 
#30
what ageist claptrap. I'm nearly 50 and I can still do a cartwheel and a handstand
and I like to dance nuevo and milonguero. and one of my favourite dancers has a stronger core and better balance and more energy than dancers 20 years younger than her.
As the poem goes

"You are old, father William," the young man said,
"And your hair has become very white;
And yet you incessantly stand on your head
Do you think, at your age, it is right?
The Young Man said

"In my youth," father William replied to his son,
"I feared it might injure the brain;
But, now that I'm perfectly sure I have none,
Why, I do it again and again."



secondly I agree with whassisname above that none of this is invention; its more about going back to how tango/canjengue was danced with a bit of spice and energy; go and look at the stone soup videos on youtube this is how be creative and playful whilst dancing tango.

Please shoot me when I get too old to dance like this!
Disagreements over what constitutes real Tango are not new. Even before this African folk dance tradition had evolved into a recognizable form of Tango, distinct camps had formed. Opinions of London Tango enthusiasts are just as divided today.
Proponents of Tango puro believe that both music and dance should remain in their original form and they are passionate defenders of their point of view. Senior Tango states "My passion for pure Tango makes me angry. I feel very strongly about how it has been abused by people who don’t have sufficient knowledge, who haven’t lived it. We are supposed to be Tango, to live Tango and not just to put it on like a hat when we go to a milonga." But others hold to the idea of Tango nuevo - music and dance that continues to develop through fusion, reinterpretation and innovation.
 
#31
Please shoot me when I get too old to dance like this!
Yep. Personally I love the fact that Horacio is a guy who's in his 40s and is still "pushing the boundaries". Age is only in the mind.

I find it quite amusing this idea that you "should act your age" in tango. Hell no. It's one of the things I love about tango that that's precisely what you dont need to do.

One lady I have a lot of fun with must be 75 if she's a day. And it feels like there's an orchestra playing in her chest. Im just along for the ride..
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
#33
Thanks so much. IMO, there still isn't anything "mock," in that clip. The dancing is real, genuine, and skillful. I neither see it making fun of any one, or AT, nor is it an imitation.
I'm basically in agreement with what you are saying. He has his own style, but it just doesn't happen to appeal to me, (but it has nothing to do with being mock, or nuevo). There's a lot of milonguero dancers who's style I dislike (such as Tete), and there are some Nuevo dancers who's style I do like (such as Chicho).

We all have different things that we like and dislike. I just don't see it as a big problem.
 

Me

New Member
#34
In the world of tango with a constant stream of festivals, teachers have the notion they must come up with something new and different to entertain the audience. If it's a tango festival, why are they doing this crazy stuff that is only giving many the impression that they should try it, too. There are many who don't question it and just follow blindly because "my teacher does it this way." I thought dancers attend a festival to improve their tango dancing. Shouldn't the teachers show them their best dancing?
I think you make a good point. I'd also like to add that this is a problem that spans other styles of dance as well.

Many students who complain about how their dancing "sucks" simply will not attend a class because "they already know that." They claim they want to look better, claim they want to learn to lead/follow better, but what they really want is a quick new "fancy step" to wow the crowd with. Doesn't matter that they can't lead/follow it, hunch and shuffle while doing it... They went to X workshop and came home with X new gimmick, and are pleased, even though their execution is positively slattern.

Quantity vs. Quality. It's the American way.

:|
 

jantango

Active Member
#35
I talked with my friend who has been attending Horacio's classes for two years. I wanted to know what she thought of the recent video at Chicago Tango Week. Her comments were: I didn't like it. Their choreography was horrible. She went on to say that he teaches "tango milonguero" in his school and then dances like this when he goes to Chicago. People are going to think that tango is danced that way in Buenos Aires. It's not.

The point is that many videos on YouTube are labeled "tango" when they are not. If the music isn't tango, the dance is something else.

Walk into a ballroom anywhere in the world where social dancing is done and you will be able to tell what dance is being done by listening to the music. Foxtrot, waltz, jitterbug, etc. have been danced for decades and still remain the same.

It's a shame that there are those who believe they have to reinvent themselves for self-preservation and create something that bears no resemblance to tango in order to interest newcomers to the dance. There is nothing wrong with teaching tango as it has been danced for decades so that its essence is part of the package.

It's also a shame that Quantity v. Quality is the American way. People would rather dance to impress than to express.
 

Peaches

Well-Known Member
#36
Still, I find myself rather baffled by some of the comments that have been made.

Those who feel it is not real AT, or not traditional AT, could you please point out exactly what parts lead to that feeling? I'll guess the hip-wiggle thing, and the interaction the audience at the end. But are there other things you're seeing?
 

Me

New Member
#37
I think the main reason it does not look like milonga to me is because they are not dancing to the milonga rhythmn, and are embellishing at times with non-traditional (i.e., nuevo) elements. They are dancing to the violins, for example, but not to the metronome-like rhythm. Another quality I find jarring is the woman is doing the majority of the embellishment in this piece, and generally I am accustomed to milonga being the time for the lady to keep the rhythm and for the gentleman to show off. (I understand there are different schools of thougth on this.)

For this particular type of music, I am accustomed to seeing a milonga danced lightly (though I know every piece of music is open to interpretation and style). I hate to use the words spring/lilt/ rise lower, but maybe some of those words can describe what I am getting at. The movement quality I see in this video when they walk looks like tango. Very level. Some walks appear more like nuevo to me, actually. I know there are many styles of milonga, some very grounded, some very light, but this just didn't seem like a milonga to me.

Again, not saying it is bad, not saying they are incapable of doing it, etc.
 

Peaches

Well-Known Member
#38
Ahhh...most helpful, thank you. Now, I feel like I'm getting somewhere wrt understanding the objections...

Interesting what you say about not dancing to the metronome-like rhythm. I think that's one of the things I like best about the piece, is that he isn't a slave to that rhythm. I'd like have seen more syncopation (one, ah, two, and three, ah, four), but that seems like the rarest of rare things to find anyone dance to.

Regarding lightness--ok, yeah, I can see that. But I guess I associate this music more with playing with the rhythm, and that did come through. I'll have to watch it again and pay attention to the lilt/rise&fall/whatever.
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
#39
Still, I find myself rather baffled by some of the comments that have been made.

Those who feel it is not real AT, or not traditional AT, could you please point out exactly what parts lead to that feeling? I'll guess the hip-wiggle thing, and the interaction the audience at the end. But are there other things you're seeing?
It's funny, but the hip wiggle didn't bother me. It was basically how he interpreted the rhythm (similar to what Me said) that I disliked the most. The first time I watched it, I never made it to the end. Today, I watched the whole thing, and I think something might have gotten stuck or caught at the end, which led to the audience interaction.

I think he's simply created his own style (which actually, I think is a good thing), but it's just not my cup of tea.
 
#40
I think the main reason it does not look like milonga to me is because they are not dancing to the milonga rhythmn, and are embellishing at times with non-traditional (i.e., nuevo) elements. They are dancing to the violins, for example, but not to the metronome-like rhythm. Another quality I find jarring is the woman is doing the majority of the embellishment in this piece, and generally I am accustomed to milonga being the time for the lady to keep the rhythm and for the gentleman to show off. (I understand there are different schools of thougth on this.)

For this particular type of music, I am accustomed to seeing a milonga danced lightly (though I know every piece of music is open to interpretation and style). I hate to use the words spring/lilt/ rise lower, but maybe some of those words can describe what I am getting at. The movement quality I see in this video when they walk looks like tango. Very level. Some walks appear more like nuevo to me, actually. I know there are many styles of milonga, some very grounded, some very light, but this just didn't seem like a milonga to me.

Again, not saying it is bad, not saying they are incapable of doing it, etc.

"He has Van Gogh's ear for music."
 

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