How many adornos do you need?

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#21
One of the nicest dances I had was with Ines Mousavi and she was decorating lighlty between my lead steps. I could feel them, but they didn't interrupt the flow of the dance. I never got to see what she did but we did some applause at the end - i wasn't a demo either.

I like a woman who adds playfulness in the dance
 

Steve Pastor

Moderator
Staff member
#23
When I teach followers who want to embellish the "secret" of how to fit them in, they usually realize they are a long way from being able to execute them with any style or control, and they forget about them for awhile in order to develop better basic habits and technique. And then they decide they dont' need to embellish as much as they thought.

Or they get impatient with learning to do the basics properly (don't we all at various times?) and they go somewhere else to learn.
And there are lots of people who will teach them, whether they have good basics or not. Which is sort of why I made my original comment.
We would all be better off if more teachers had your philosophy.

And perhaps we will once again get into the other things that women can do to be more active in the dance.
Sorry, Larry, this is what happens when you've been around for a while and have written the same things repeatedly.
 
#25
Hi heather, its going to be a follower´s thread again. Wha0t about us leaders?

cheers
Okay leaders. Do you adorn, embellish, flourish etc. when you dance. And how much? And what is that you do? Do you make up your own, or do you copy the follower's steps? Or if not, why not? There, Opendoor something debatable for the leaders to think/write about - ha, ha, ha
 

Gssh

Well-Known Member
#26
There, Opendoor something debatable for the leaders to think/write about - ha, ha, ha
Well, i tend to do pretty much the same adornments as followers do, though with less flourish (lacking the CIF's it is less interesting to watch, i do them mostly for my own amusement anyway) - i am partial to toe and heel taps while walking or doing ochos, or in giros. If i am not stepping the giro but doing the twisty/impulse thing i like to finish up with a small boleo into a cross before double timing out. One of the things that i think is unique about leaders embellishments is that we can embellish by not moving our feet, e.g. in tight ochos the difference in accent between stepping with the follower and being stationary myself is a nice thing to explore. I try to not overdo it, because similar how it gets disruptive when a follower overadorns it gets disruptive when a leader does, especially as some followers seem to feel the need to imitate the leaders footwork, even when they can't feel it (as intendend :)) - some even start looking down when they suspect that something is happening that they don't feel. It is exactly the same problem as with follower adornments - the lead/follow gets unclear because other things are going on. As a leader i have the advantage that followers wont run me over if my timing with an adornment is off, but on the flip side followers seem to be much less likely to let small ambivalencies go - leaders seem in general to ignore "feelable" follower adornos, followers often don't. One of the hardest adornments to pull off for me is doing forward ochos while the follower walks just straight back - only very few follower can resist the urge to do ochos, too. Followers ochos and giros are in general excellent places for leaders who want to begin playing with adornos. The follower is suspendend in the pivot for a bit, and even if the tapping/stomping whatever is not completely "invisible" it will usally not lead to a weightshift or loss of connection. Walks are hard, especially parallel walking, but cross system, both right and left is a bit easier (my theory is that the dissociation and slightly different feel of the cross system helps mask the adornos, and makes them less disruptive).

Gssh
 
#28
You say you hate her adding an embellishment. Figures or bellishments. What's the difference? Your leading her to perform, say, a front ocho could be just as annoying for her could it not. Perhaps all she wants to do is walk back and side step.



Give me an example
If I'm leading a stationary forward ocho to a follower who knows how to execute the move properly then the movement of the figure speaks for itself and the embellishments only makes it ugly. Embellishments are usually used way too often and mostly by beginners or the look at me crowd. They can interrupt the pace of the dance that the leader has set. I believe that tango danced properly is very beautiful and remember.... "less is better"
 

bastet

Active Member
#29
Adornos are adornment- you don't need any if you don't want to....and they shouldn't be disruptive to teh partner.

But I do think learning about adornment is good technical practice for everyone. I see a lot of people that dance with "dead feet" or floppy ankles and feet that arent' really being used except as a means to hold their weight, if you get what I mean...so I think even if you don't really want to adorn, it's certainly good to have had technical training in more than just "steps" to help you use more of your body to dance.
 

Steve Pastor

Moderator
Staff member
#30
One of the most useful things I learned in AT was that you can do one thing with your upper body/torso, and something else entirely with your feet. With that as a basis (and I DO recognize that women can do the same as long as they clearly communicate where their weight is, or do their adornos without "disrupting the lead")....

I've been known to: "kick" between my partner's steps while she travels around me in a giro/molinete, do taps behind in between slow steps, "cross" in front of myself then uncross in something that we might liken to a boleo, and a hadful of other things that we may or may not consider to be "adornments".
 
#31
The only adornment I regularly do is an enrosque when I'm leading a molinete or giro. I don't want to nor understand why I would want to copy the follower's steps. Her adornment belongs to her, not me.

Okay leaders. Do you adorn, embellish, flourish etc. when you dance. And how much? And what is that you do? Do you make up your own, or do you copy the follower's steps? Or if not, why not?
 
#32
:cool:
Bravo Jan
If it's one thing I hate It's to be in the moment and WHAM she adds an embellishment. I believe that when tango is danced well the leader will be skilled enough to show off the follower by executing the figures and allowing her to retain her balance and axis. That's all she needs to dance and look good. By adding adornos it takes away from the flow of the lead.
Some of the most interesting tango is when I've lead a sweep and the woman decided to sweep my foot in return. Or when I've lead a stepover and she dragged my foot.

Daniel Trenner said "there's no security in tango." One of the most interesting classes I took was "Creative Interleading" with Virginia Kelly at the Summer NY Tango Festival. It wasn't backleading. The woman would stop me with her firm frame for an adornment she wanted. It melded with the music and she got to express herself.

It's not important I know exactly what the woman is doing. It's crucial I know when she's finished. Some adornments are sensual, such as a very slow turning pivot or slow stepover.

Tango is 2 way conversation. It's not about domination and submission.
When the connection is good, I won't do much except try to intensify the connection. Sometimes, the woman wants to intensify the connection.

I understand how a misplaced adornment can break the mood. But that doesn't mean every adornment breaks the mood.:)
 

jantango

Active Member
#33
Adornments to excess

There are Youtube videos of Carlos Stasi and Jose Garofalo of Porteno y Bailarin dancing together. They seem to enjoy a comedy exhibitions at their milonga. (porteybailarin on YouTube) And they don't run a gay milonga in Buenos Aires.

See the new video dated May 2, 2009, which is entirely about adornments to excess. Jose is the one in high heels.
 

Angel HI

Well-Known Member
#34
Embellishments are usually used way too often and mostly by beginners or the look at me crowd.
Thsi is my sentiment, exactly. I have found that persons do adornos b/c they believe that they are supposed to...it's a part of AT'''it's what you do. Uh...no, it's not. Adornos should be interactions/extensions with/of the movements, not taps, flicks, brief kicks, snaps, or whatever else b/c one thinks that it makes the dance look more tangoey.
 
#35
...of the figure speaks for itself and the embellishments only makes it ugly. Embellishments are usually used way too often and mostly by beginners or the look at me crowd. They can interrupt the pace of the dance that the leader has set. I believe that tango danced properly is very beautiful and remember.... "less is better"
No embellishment in itself is ugly per se . It is only "ugly" when it is badly executed (yes, this is where you are correct, beginners tend to but, but, but - often because they haven't been taught how to...) as well as when a leader doesn't give the follower time to execute it. Your aversion towards followers tapping a toe or sliding a leg can be said also for the leaders who do nothing but patterns/figures and they often end up doing a neat impression of a greyhound on speed. It's a story of halves and yes, it does take two to tell a wonderful fairytale (as well as a nightmare). And heaps of patience.

Have seen many men (and yep, the female leaders tend not to and so the word "men" I will use here) that stifle the follower in her dance. Usually because he is not so much as "showing her off" as you say (?? I am so busy thinking about us as a dancing partnership and the connection swimming between the two of us that "showing her off" doesn't come into play) but in fact is showing himself off with all those. (Can anyone else spot the difference). And so yep, it can be argued that a hatred for the woman to embellish is in fact an impatience at her stealing his thunder. As it were.
 
#36
Adornos as spice

Adornos are just one more artistic tool for dancers to use to express themselves. Like every technique they can be used well or poorly or in between.

Adornos are like spice. Too much is as bad as too little. And the wrong spice is worse than no spice.

Leaders who object to women (OKKKKK: followers) adding adornos are either arrogant and insisting on women being puppets, or rightfully objecting to women doing something badly. But if a woman can express herself discreetly and elegantly without ruining the dance for the leader, I applaud her. I want women as partners, not as slaves.

Laer Carroll
 

Angel HI

Well-Known Member
#38
Leaders who object to women (OKKKKK: followers) adding adornos are either arrogant and insisting on women being puppets, or rightfully objecting to women doing something badly. But if a woman can express herself discreetly and elegantly without ruining the dance for the leader, I applaud her. I want women as partners, not as slaves.

Laer Carroll
Agreed. Yet the point is why do them at all? do them if they are well and rightly executed, and natural within the movement..not because one believes that adornos are supposed to be in AT so I'm going to throw one in at every seeming moment...or not.
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#39
my teaching partner is a desperate show off and always tries to get things in between my steps. maybe its just what seem people want to be doing; flashy look-at-me moves; particular jivers (sorry DB if thats a sweeping generalistion)
 

Peaches

Well-Known Member
#40
Agreed. Yet the point is why do them at all? do them if they are well and rightly executed, and natural within the movement..not because one believes that adornos are supposed to be in AT so I'm going to throw one in at every seeming moment...or not.
Why do them at all? What about for the reason thatyou just can't help yourself?

I'm not convinced that the only acceptable adornos are those which are purely an extension of the movement. I don't mean taps and flicks and whatnot have to be thrown in wherever, but there's something kind of nice about cirlcing the floor when you're standing still, because you're moved to. Or accenting a straightforward movement with a tap, because it's fun. Or a cross behind before a step. Sometimes, you just can't help yourself. (And this is coming from someone who really hates doing embellishments, in general.)

Or there's always the reason that you're bored out of your skull with a particular leader and you've got to do something to amuse yourself. (To be used sparingly.)
 

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