How many adornos do you need?

#81
You have lost me. You agreed that it doesn't matter where you lead the molinete from but you want me to begin on the side step followed by forward. The steps are forward-side-back OR side-forward-side-back OR back-side-forward. I really don't understand why you think your recommended new technique works. If the woman doesn't finish her pivot, what difference does it make which step you begin the molinete.
 
#82
You have lost me. You agreed that it doesn't matter where you lead the molinete from but you want me to begin on the side step followed by forward. The steps are forward-side-back OR side-forward-side-back OR back-side-forward. I really don't understand why you think your recommended new technique works. If the woman doesn't finish her pivot, what difference does it make which step you begin the molinete.
The molinete starts with the woman taking a forward step,,,,followed by a side step.....followed by a back step.....this is Molinete 101.
have a local instructor demonstrate the lead and the woman's steps....usually it's eight steps but sometimes it can be six.
Now....suggest to the instructor to make the second step in the figure another forward step instead of the traditional side step. He/she will tell you this is a crazy idea but you will convince him/her to try it......and Shazam you have changed the way the whole world dances molinetes and you'll go down in history as the Molinete King.
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
#84
Try this technique......have the follower take two forward steps and then a back step. The back step should be a sharp pivot stepping back with the knees bent. The back pivoting step should be a short step with a lot of torque. One of the biggest mistakes made is the stepping in toward the leader, that makes the back pivot weak. If she's stepping forward and executes a quick pivot everyone will remain in balance. The second step is the key instead of the second step being the side step change it to a forward step.
Try this technique....it works
I'm not following this at ALL.

Are you talking about a giro around the leader, or 2 forward steps and a back step in a line and them pivoting the backstep, or the parada, or.....

Ok... I admit it... I've no idea what you're talking about...
 

Me

New Member
#85
Best molinete 101 lesson... ever... for me was taught to a group of dancers by Fabian Salas. He'd have everybody form a circle in the room (leads and follows) and he'd chant "front, open, back, open" and have everybody chant with him as they stepped front, side, back, side. Facing the middle of the circle while taking the steps helped the dancers, without even knowing it, get a feel for rotating the lower half of the body independently from the top, helping (somewhat) with the problem of the ladies underotating the back step (and drifting away from their partner). Chanting the molinete helped the ladies learn the "pattern", and helped the gentlemen understand they needed to know where their lady was to get the ladies in and out of molinete. Then Fabian taught a usefull little exercise, getting in and out of molinete with ochos (right and left from back ochos, right and left from front ochos). Even the brand-new dancers were able to grasp this. Damn good classs.

Apologies for the hijack. :)
 

Peaches

Well-Known Member
#86
Heh...I don't know how long it took me to stop thinking "forward, side, back, side" whenever I did them. It helped, though, that I had done a bit of ballroom and was familiar with a grapevine.

As for not drifting, which I did struggle with a bit, my teacher made me do them in lessons without the arms part of the embrace. Just chest-to-chest apilado/shared axis contact...if I moved wrong, I'd fall (well, would have, if he wasn't good about catching me and preventing falling).
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
#87
Too many women have problems walking forward because they are afraid they are going to step on my foot. I lead the molinete coming off an ocho, making no difference if it's front or back ocho. This is a technique issue. That's the problem with teachers who emphasize steps- - and not how to execute them.
:-(

Michael
Yes, followers usually have trouble walking forward directly into the leader for the same reason that beginner leaders have trouble with it. But followers can get away with being bad at it much longer than leaders because they spend so much time doing everything BUT taking forward steps directly into the leader (since leaders so rarely walk directly backwards)

They may not find out that they are awkward at walking forward into the leader for quite awhile in their tango development. (whereas Leaders are dealing with it from day 1)

However in the molinete (or the stepover) the follower isn't walking directly into the leader (in a line), so I'm not sure of your correlation. In my experience, followers have trouble with the forward ocho of a molinete sequence not only because of their forward walking technique (although this is sometimes the case) but often because the leader has not opened a space for her in any way and the forward ocho of the sequence feels to the follower exactly the same as the back ocho. So she does another back ocho (ie: side, back, side, back)

Sometimes it's the followers issue because she falls back due to her posture. (I also see this in beginners who are being led to a cross... they take a back step because they've allowed their weight to be falling backward instead of maintaining forward intention) But just as often, its the leader whose body is in the wrong place for her forward step in the molinete (especially if it is done after the side, back, side combination)

So I'm not sure why it would make any difference how you start the molinete combination...
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
#88
The molinete starts with the woman taking a forward step,,,,followed by a side step.....followed by a back step.....this is Molinete 101.
I disagree with this. IMO, that is only one way that it can start. The molinette can actually start with any of the front, side, or the back steps.

Example: if you are leading back ochos, you can then lead a back -> side -> front.
 

Peaches

Well-Known Member
#89
I'd like point out that, just as girls can get away with not taking good steps forward because they don't use it as much as walking back, it seems that men don't always know how to walk backward nicely...which makes it difficult for the follower.
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
#90
the woman traditionally takes #1 a forward step, #2 a side step #3 a back step and so on. The TechniqueI'm suggesting is to lead #2 as a forward step rather then the traditional side step.
.
Oh, I see what you are saying...

Of course, I was taught that the usual sequence is the reverse of what you wrote... back, side, forward. Not forward, side, back.

Either way, I have found that the problem just as often lies with the leader leading the forward and back steps exactly the same. When I first learned the molinete, I certainly didn't have great technique on ANYTHING, and my forward walking was still atrocious for quite awhile after that. But I never had any trouble distinguishing between the forward step and the back step of a molinete with my teacher/partner because his lead was so clear.

I COULDN"T take a forward step when he wanted the back step or vice versa. And he was doing flat on close embrace "crossed" ochos (no pivot) where you would think the distinction would be LESS clear because there is NO space between out upper bodies for the forward ocho. But it was CLEARLY a "bring the leg in front not back" step because of how he shifted HIS weight.

Anything that gets the distinction clarified for both partners is a good technique as far as I'm concerned. You could mix it up in a number of different ways. And then the leader would have to learn what to do to distinguish between the forward and back ochos.

But I still maintain that often when the follower won't step forward in a molinete, its not just because she's wrongly thinking that she'll step on him.. its because the leader hasn't actually led the forward step correctly and she feels she has to fight against it to take a forward step.

If she allows her step to step away from him, that's another issue.. First she has to feel that a forward step is the right thing to do rather than feel it is difficult to get there.
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
#91
lost me too; for her to do a forward step I would have to step with her and then doesnt it become a caminada?
Well, you don't have to step with her... she can walk around you in forward steps.. they just won't be ochos after the first one. Its just walking forward in a circle with you as the center.

But I think a better exercise for fixing the molinete problems is a variation on what hbboogie suggested... instead of replacing the side step, keep doing side steps between the ochos, but mix up the ochos so that they do side, back, side, back, side, back... or side, forward, side, forward, or side, back, side, forward, side, forward, side back, side back.... etc

Sorta like the exercise of walking outside like you are taking the follower to the cross, but then keep her walking without crossing until you deliberately lead the cross. It helps both the the leaders and the followers more aware of how the lead to the cross feels different from a lead for another backstep or simply placing the foot down beside the right foot.
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
#92
Best molinete 101 lesson... ever... for me was taught to a group of dancers by Fabian Salas. He'd have everybody form a circle in the room (leads and follows) and he'd chant "front, open, back, open" and have everybody chant with him as they stepped front, side, back, side. Facing the middle of the circle while taking the steps helped the dancers, without even knowing it, get a feel for rotating the lower half of the body independently from the top, helping (somewhat) with the problem of the ladies underotating the back step (and drifting away from their partner). Chanting the molinete helped the ladies learn the "pattern", and helped the gentlemen understand they needed to know where their lady was to get the ladies in and out of molinete. Then Fabian taught a usefull little exercise, getting in and out of molinete with ochos (right and left from back ochos, right and left from front ochos). Even the brand-new dancers were able to grasp this. Damn good classs.

Apologies for the hijack. :)
Sounds like a good exercise on a number of levels, but my objection is that it reinforces the idea that its a proscribed pattern that must be memorized by the follower rather then led so that it happens as intended.

Certainly if the leader is allowing himself to be pivoted by the follower revolving around him, there's not much he can do to distinguish between the back step and forward step. But on the other hand, if she's taking over the momentum to pivot him, she can do whatever she pleases to get around him, and isn't actually required to follow the "pattern". As long as she doesn't pull the leader off his center, its really kinda her choice at that point.

Granted, most followers will do the molinete pattern out of habit. But if he isn't indicating anything, she can do whatever she wants as long as she keeps the relationship between them.
 

Gssh

Well-Known Member
#93
My favourite moulinette exercise is to do it slowly, with the leader just stepping in place, and stop on the middle axis at every step, i.e. when the followers weight is between her feet and both feet are on the ground. And at every of these stops check that both feet are the same distance from the leader. This helps both the leader and the follower to figure out how much dissociation and space is needed for every single step, and how to lead them, and what the geometry is. Often it becomes obvious that the leaders chest actually doesn't allow the follower to do the step correctly without losing her balance. Even when the leader allows the follower to pivot him he has to indicate with his chest what direction her next step is going to take.

In my experience it is not one of the steps that is the problem, but that the moulinette is danced and taught as a "unit", especially when the leader leads is pivoting in the middle. The problem is that followers don't trace a circle in their moulinette, but a star. Both leaders and followers pick up a specific technique that makes the beginning and the end of that "unit" work, while using different lenghts of steps and different angles/distances in the middle. E.g. long side step away from the partner, long, almost not pivoed front step, large pivot on the second side step, and short backstep that is almost crossing behind will make the 4 step sequence work, but because the lengths of the steps are not equal and the follower is first drifting apart from the leader and then correcting this will turn into a bad habit that makes variations of the moulinette, like front, side, front, side, front almost impossible to lead, and saccadas and other entries into the moulinette hard to do consistently.


Gssh
 
#94
This problem is no different than ochos. Some women pull and push themselves through ochos with their right hand. Some do the same thing in the molinete. They push during the back step and pull on the forward step causing a zig zag.

My problems with sacadas is I don't feel a space between the woman's legs to step or if she is pushing with her right hand, I'm thrown off our alignment, which makes sacadas even more difficult.
 
#95
it's a molinete

lost me too; for her to do a forward step I would have to step with her and then doesnt it become a caminada?
"Molinete" Definition : Turnstile The reason they named it molinete was because it goes in a circle like a "turnstile" it's not a step over it's not a front ocho it's not a back ocho it's not a caminada it's a molinete.

A molinete can be lead to the right or to the left, either way the leader is in a stationary position (both feet planted firmly on the floor) as the follower takes the first two steps of the molinete the leader followers her with his upper body only... keeping his feet planted firmly on the floor. On her third step (the back step) the leader releases one of his feet (depending which direction the molinete is being lead... and the torque from her doing the back step and the release of the built up torque in the leaders body brings him around to complete the rotation and continue on.
For the follower there is always a forward step followed by a side step in the molinete. I'm simply suggesting you replace that side step into another forward step.
I was taught this by a salon style instructor who figured out that this would help the follower keep the proper distance from the leader and to create more torque when doing the back step.
I have been doing this with my partner for about a year and it really works.
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
#97
the leader is in a stationary position (both feet planted firmly on the floor) as the follower takes the first two steps of the molinete the leader followers her with his upper body only... keeping his feet planted firmly on the floor. On her third step (the back step) the leader releases one of his feet (depending which direction the molinete is being lead... and the torque from her doing the back step and the release of the built up torque in the leaders body brings him around to complete the rotation and continue on.
For the follower there is always a forward step followed by a side step in the molinete.
Well, that's one way to do it..

That's also an extremely limited definition.

For starters, the leader can indicate that the follower should stay in one place while he does the molinete around her. Or they can both do the pattern around a center axis that is between them. Neither of these scenarios contradict your "turnstile" definition. Nor does it contradict the "turnstile" concept for him to NOT keep his feet firmly planted for the 1st 2 steps but possibly cross behind, or even just do step, step step in place. Or for her to do side, back, side, back, side, back around him....

And if the follower does the back ocho as the 1st ocho, there won't nessesarily be a side step after she does the forward ocho because the "grapevine pattern" is now complete. (she's gone side, back, side, front...) They could go anywhere from there, just like any other time she has done a forward ocho or is in the regular cross...
 

Peaches

Well-Known Member
#99
Heh...I know what a molinete is, and I can't follow this discussion. LOL.

I will say that I used to be paranoid about pushing/pulling myself through motions...and then I took a class where lead and follow was swapped for various exercises...and ended up sore from the experience. I'm happy to say that I'm confident I don't do such things!

/*end hijack
 

Angel HI

Well-Known Member
The molinete starts with the woman taking a forward step,,,,followed by a side step.....followed by a back step.....this is Molinete 101.
Hmmm. Not necessarily so. Fabian Salas always teaches it beginning w/ a back step. Of course, there are some movements that begin side and forward.
 

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