How many adornos do you need?

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
My right hand doesn't tell the woman which way to pivot. The right hand keeps her near me in the embrace. My teacher gave me leading exercises where I didn't use my hands, testing if I moved my torso and the woman moved before I stepped.

Michael
" your left hand is for your drink, right hand for your fag; and if you cant dance without spilling your drink you're not a milonguero"

El Hombre de Taverna
 

Me

New Member
" your left hand is for your drink, right hand for your fag...
:shock:

Oh wait, nevermind. (My silly little American mind...)

But I would like to made a small contribution to your phrase of wisdom (bolded).

" your left hand is for your drink, right hand for your fag; and if you cant dance without spilling your drink or setting the lady's hair on fire you're not a milonguero"
 

Me

New Member
I think this confusion might be mostly a question of semantics - in my view the frame only plays a minimal role in keeping the follower close to the leader- the follower stays close to the leader because she activly tries to stay close to the leader. And this perspective leads to talking about the "use of the chest" in terms of "making space" for the follwer to pivot herself instead of "pivoting the follower".

Using the conceptual framework you set up above Zoopsoa's remark about "giving her room for the forward ocho" would translate into "pivoting her enough for the forward ocho to make her step close to the leader".

I really think exploring the moulinette pattern step by step is vital - it is one of the moves that i did not find intuitive to lead correctly because it requires requires either extremely subtle placement of the follower to be smooth, or at least enough feel for the geometry of to stay out of the followers way so she can step close. I have a problem with my followers shortening up their backstep, and it is mostly because i don't adjust my chest properly to allow them enough time for a deep enough pivot / having enough room to create the pivot themselves.

For me the problem with the moulinette as a leader is that in the followers transition from the side step to the back step i shift my chest in the direction that i am pivoting to lead a backstep, which leads me to accelerate my turning, which leads her to step short to catch up, and conversely from the side step to the front step i shift my chest against the direction that i am pivoting, which makes me slow down my turning, and makes her step long. I know that some teachers recommend to play with the rhythm of the moulinette, but i think as a first step it is a good idea to lead it flat.

Gssh

This pretty much covers anything I had to say!

Would like to add that it might not be your fault that your ladies are clipping their backsteps, though your diagnosis could be accurate (I'm not there.) I just know that this backstep is the most problematic, and many factors could cause the lady to clip her step, none relating to your lead. :)
 
Would like to add that it might not be your fault that your ladies are clipping their backsteps, though your diagnosis could be accurate (I'm not there.) I just know that this backstep is the most problematic, and many factors could cause the lady to clip her step, none relating to your lead.

That was the point in my previous post but no one seemed to get it. I'll try to explain it a different way that might help with the backstep.
When you take the sidestep before doing the backstep your feet are facing the leader so when you do the backstep it's a weak 90 degree pivot.
Try this.....take a forward step instead of a sidestep this will put your feet in a straight line ...don't turn your lead foot in toward the leader that would give you a weak pivot...keep your feet straight that's the key element that makes this work..now when you do the backstep you are doing a full 180 degree pivot with little effort and at the same time generating enough energy to bring the leader around.
 

Me

New Member
When you take the sidestep before doing the backstep your feet are facing the leader so when you do the backstep it's a weak 90 degree pivot.
Try this.....take a forward step instead of a sidestep this will put your feet in a straight line ...don't turn your lead foot in toward the leader that would give you a weak pivot...keep your feet straight that's the key element that makes this work..now when you do the backstep you are doing a full 180 degree pivot with little effort and at the same time generating enough energy to bring the leader around.
Well... I have to disagree here. :)

I know not everybody agrees with this, but there is a general accepted rule or code of molinete. Two forward steps breaks this. If the lady takes two foward steps, I would imagine the lead thinks the lady has opted to walk forward instead of to take the conventional molinete. Would a massive back ocho not surprise him?

Additionally, I believe this alteration to generate more rotation would exacerbate the problem of the ladies stepping away from their lead on the back step. The given time frame to complete the smaller ocho to back step is a challenge as it is. If the lady were required to rotate further, I imagine this would either result in a. the lady not rotating enough and stepping away on the back step or b. completing the rotation, but shortening her back step.

I also think this would introduce more headache for the lead, as he now is "robbed" of his lead options from that side step... We catch enough flack about "not following" as it is...
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
.take a forward step instead of a sidestep this will put your feet in a straight line ...don't turn your lead foot in toward the leader that would give you a weak pivot...keep your feet straight.
It would be up to the leader to indicate whether she should pivot to face him in the first forward step (as she should if he gives no other indication) or to continue walking forward without adjusting to bring herself back into the proper orientation to him.

This brings us back to an earlier couple of posts upthread about the problems with the stepover, etc... The follower SHOULD be turing her foot towards her partner so that she doesn't step away from him by stepping straight on her 90 angle to him. She SHOULD be doing her part at all times to maintain the proper orientation of her body to his body which means she will try to pivot on that forward step unless she is specifically led NOT TO.
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
If the lady takes two foward steps, I would imagine the lead thinks the lady has opted to walk forward instead of to take the conventional molinete. Would a massive back ocho not surprise him?.
The leader has to lead this "fix". The follower can't just decide to do it on her own.
 
It would be up to the leader to indicate whether she should pivot to face him in the first forward step (as she should if he gives no other indication) or to continue walking forward without adjusting to bring herself back into the proper orientation to him.

This brings us back to an earlier couple of posts upthread about the problems with the stepover, etc... The follower SHOULD be turing her foot towards her partner so that she doesn't step away from him by stepping straight on her 90 angle to him. She SHOULD be doing her part at all times to maintain the proper orientation of her body to his body which means she will try to pivot on that forward step unless she is specifically led NOT TO.
I'm not suggesting she step away from the man, he is leading her to take a second forward step around him just like the first step she is traveling in an arc around him. When she takes the second Straight (Arcing step) she keeps her forward foot straight rather then turned in. Now when she executes the back step she pivots while bending her knees and its a VERY SHORT BACKSTEP and I might add easier to do than the traditional backstep.
And yes it breaks tradition ...so what if it looks better and works better ?
 

Gssh

Well-Known Member
I'm not suggesting she step away from the man, he is leading her to take a second forward step around him just like the first step she is traveling in an arc around him. When she takes the second Straight (Arcing step) she keeps her forward foot straight rather then turned in. Now when she executes the back step she pivots while bending her knees and its a VERY SHORT BACKSTEP and I might add easier to do than the traditional backstep.
And yes it breaks tradition ...so what if it looks better and works better ?
Hmm, so the variation you like to lead is (assuming the simplest footwork for the leader, just stepping in place) (in the left direction):
1) Use upper body to lead a forward step, and pivot myself to make her step forward
2) Use chest to block her tendency to go into a sidestep (I probably need to counter lead against this tendency, i.e. turn a little bit farther to the right to keep her from just dissociating and twisting herself up and walking against my lead), and pivot to make her step forward again
3) Use chest to lead a 180 degree pivot, like into a forward ocho while continuing to move to the left, leading her into a fast backstep because i have overall sped up by turning my chest to the left while pivoting to the left
4) Use chest for a sidestep
5) start over at 1

I like it, though i think it doesn't address the basic question of how to lead a moulinette precisely - it just uses the basic problem we leaders have (how to manage the speed of her pivots around her axis combined with the speed of my pivot around my axis) and turns it into a virtue - leading this smoothly will keep me on time and connected exactly because i lead it "badly" - if i wanted to lead it flat (each step takes the same time, and each step has the same lenght, and each time the follower puts her foot down it is at the same distance from my axis) then step 3 would require a lot of dissocation - the way 3 is structured geometry wise suggests to me that most followers will probably do a milonguero ocho/cross behind and not a pivot+backstep.
(disclaimer- i have not danced this (yet :) ) - it might be that i am misreading how this looks in practice)

I don't think we are talking about tradition here, more about the question of what happens if we dance with a hypothetical "blank slate" follower - somebody who is an excellent follower, but has never seen or danced tango before. My personal philosophy is that anything i dance i should be able to dance with her.

Just as with the stepover it is a very difficult question to get the geometry just right - the visible/obvious problem is that the follower steps away from the leader and varies the lenght of her steps. It is either the leaders or the followers fault, but because i am a leader i am trying to figure out what i can do in my lead to make it more natural for the follower to put her feet down where i think she should put her foot down - an excellent follwer will be where she needs to be no matter what i do, a bad one will be somewhere else, equally independent of what i do, but as a leader what is important is the middleground - the vast majority of followers who are able to dance anything if and only if it is lead correctly.

The follower curving around the leader is a question of followers technique, but it should also be supported and suggested by the leaders technique.

Gssh
 
Excuse me? And who is "they"? "They" had better not include me. Thank you.
from the replies to my post I can only assume....I don't want to offend anyone. My training is the style of Orlando Piava very exacting footwork and what some call elegante. When I lead a molinete I'm executing a lapis or pencil movement with my feet, my chest is following the woman, she is the same distance from me during the molinete.
If you go to youtube Orlando Piava you will see him or his son Damian
doing a molinete, the technique is the same except for the second side step being a forward step, this will not change the dynamics of the step it improves it.
If you are standing flat footed and simply shuffling your feet to keep up with the woman as she walks around you...never mind, you don't need to lead it any different then what you are doing.
For those men that are having trouble pivoting on one foot as the woman steps around you...try this it might help.
 

Angel HI

Well-Known Member
I like it, .....

... but because i am a leader i am trying to figure out what i can do in my lead to make it more natural for the follower to put her feet down where i think she should put her foot down - an excellent follwer will be where she needs to be no matter what i do,...
I like it, too, though I understand the objections and limitations.

This second part is correct, but it should be noted that the follower being where she needs to be, if I am not misinterpretig Gssh, does not refer to where she needs to be in relation to the lead, rather where she needs to be in relation to her movement. This is to say, that if the lady ochos well after the forward step, and more importantly, before the back step; and, if she is centered and sqaured on her open (side) steps, then she is where she needs to be re her balance, and should not veer away from the lead. Hence, she will be where she needs to be in relation to him by default.
 

Me

New Member
hbboggie1,

I would appreciate it if you would answer my question.

Thank you Zoopsia ...They do not understand the concept of actually leading every step that's taken no matter if it's walking, ocho molinete or whatever.

Who is they? Me? Other people who are making intelligent contributions to this discussion? You have made a broad statement that "they" do not understand the concept of actually leading. I would like some clarification.
 
clarification for "ME"

hbboggie1,

I would appreciate it if you would answer my question.




Who is they? Me? Other people who are making intelligent contributions to this discussion? You have made a broad statement that "they" do not understand the concept of actually leading. I would like some clarification.
I base the "they" on two things first by some of the responses that are posted that leads me to believe "they" aren't skilled leaders.
Second "they" are the other people that read this forum but don't choose to post comments that just might gain a bit of information or a suggestion that could help them on their way to becoming a better leader.
 
hbboogie1;694909....[B said:
leads me to believe "they" aren't skilled leaders[/b].
And I'll bet after reading that line (way too long after when you could recall and edit) you thought: "oops, maybe that sounded a little too erm........arrogant?".
 
Apology

And I'll bet after reading that line (way too long after when you could recall and edit) you thought: "oops, maybe that sounded a little too erm........arrogant?".
Heather I didn't mean to offend anyone with my statement especially not followers......just the leaders HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
Heather I didn't mean to offend anyone with my statement especially not followers......just the leaders HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
OK, so who are leaders who you feel "do not understand the concept of actually leading every step"? And out of curiosity, how did you determine that they didn't understand this advanced concept?

:rolleyes:
 
advanced theory

OK, so who are leaders who you feel "do not understand the concept of actually leading every step"? And out of curiosity, how did you determine that they didn't understand this advanced concept?

:rolleyes:
I have read post on this forum that have "lead me to believe" (pardon the pun) that some men are not too skilled at leading. I determine this by their comments, that's all I have to go by. I could be dead wrong but I don't think so.
If I was to comment on the thread about music 4x4 2x4 and so on you would determine that I not only don't understand the advanced concept but I'm a complete idiot when it comes to understanding music theory. However I know that I'm a complete idiot in music theory and admit it...and don't wish to advance my knowledge on the subject so if I did comment on it everyone would know that I 'm an idiot in music theory.
I hope this helps to explain my statements and that no offense was intended.
Does this answer your question?
 

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