Motivations for studying Tango Nuevo

#21
No, I'm not kidding and I don't consider it ridiculous. Issues with balance and pivoting come most readily to mind. It's easy enough to have good balance when you've got another person to balance against, even if you're on your own axis. It's easy enough to pivot correctly enough when you've got someone else to balance against. But take those two fundamental concepts and apply them in, say, overturned ochos, and existing flaws readily become apparent. Things like not having good enough control over your axis and core, like not transferring weight fully before pivoting, like generating the power for a pivot entirely through your own body and how you use your feet.
Good points. Excellent points, in fact.

I know my whole posture goes to &"£^ if I'm not careful when opening out into a nuevo style.

And, quite frankly, I don't give a rat's [butt] about following rules that were designed decades ago, for another time, another place and another culture, simply because they are the tradition.
I think I did a thread about this... hold on...

Ah, here it is: " Codigos - which are universal?"
 
#22
No, I'm not kidding and I don't consider it ridiculous. Issues with balance and pivoting come most readily to mind. It's easy enough to have good balance when you've got another person to balance against, even if you're on your own axis. It's easy enough to pivot correctly enough when you've got someone else to balance against. But take those two fundamental concepts and apply them in, say, overturned ochos, and existing flaws readily become apparent. Things like not having good enough control over your axis and core, like not transferring weight fully before pivoting, like generating the power for a pivot entirely through your own body and how you use your feet.
My friend and I were taught in open embrace and very much in the nuevo mould. He continually says he can tell the difference between between followers taught in close embrace and open embrace because those taught in close embrace find it more difficult to maintain their own axis. When I dance I don't notice these things so much.

We are both having problems at the moment dancing in close embrace with more musicality in relation to traditional music but that seems to be a much easier hurdle to cross than the other way round.
 

Peaches

Well-Known Member
#23
Interesting. I wonder what that difference is from, really.

T'aint easy, you know, prancing around in heels like that. ;)
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
#24
... he can tell the difference ..between followers taught in close embrace and open embrace because those taught in close embrace find it more difficult to maintain their own axis. ..
agreed in double sense: I, as a leader, found it quite hard too, to learn a stable self-adjusting axis (remember my thread "is Salón healthier than Milonguero"?)
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#25
My friend and I were taught in open embrace and very much in the nuevo mould. He continually says he can tell the difference between between followers taught in close embrace and open embrace because those taught in close embrace find it more difficult to maintain their own axis. When I dance I don't notice these things so much.

We are both having problems at the moment dancing in close embrace with more musicality in relation to traditional music but that seems to be a much easier hurdle to cross than the other way round.
ditto as far as far as open embrace is concerned; i dont wobble when pivoting and i can do marvellous calesitas on the odd occasion I am a follower......

for close embrace milonguero; groundedness is far more important.
 

Steve Pastor

Moderator
Staff member
#26
I think nuevo dancing has a sense of "play"
I think it's really unfortunate that that the opportunities for "play" don't get more attention in "close embrace". But then, there are some very specific things that facilitate it, and those don't seem to be taught very often (based on my sampling).
Of course observers must have a very keen eye to notice this, unlike people dancing bigger.

Branding people who dance certain movements with a lot of energy "nuevo" is unfortunately a fact of life which is unlikely to go away.
Those of us who have been reading DF (or most other tango discussion sites) with any regularity should know that "nuevo" was really an exploration of what was already being done, and at most introduced one new movement to the dance. Just a reminder, least we forget.
 
#27
I think it's really unfortunate that that the opportunities for "play" don't get more attention in "close embrace". But then, there are some very specific things that facilitate it, and those don't seem to be taught very often (based on my sampling).
quote]

In my opinion the characteristics of the connection are different between open and close embrace as well.

I feel that the connection in open embrace comes about by almost sublimally feeling how your partner moves and automatically without thinking about it moving with your partner to accomadate that move and vice verse.

Whereas the connection in close embrace is far more of a tangiable feeling within the body, caused by the body movements of your partner and then reproducing the required reaction in yourself.
 
#29
I think it's really unfortunate that that the opportunities for "play" don't get more attention in "close embrace". But then, there are some very specific things that facilitate it, and those don't seem to be taught very often (based on my sampling).
I don't think much "play" happens until after technical issues have been thoroughly sorted out. "Play" mainly happens when people are feeling relaxed and natural with the dance process and each other.

For me, close embrace sets up a lot of new technical problems, such as:

*He wants an ocho. How can I disassociate my body enough to carry it out without disrupting the embrace too much and find the space to step without kicking him?
*So he opens out the embrace to give me space - how do I settle back into it smoothly and seamlessly?
*How can I find a comfortable place for my left arm that won't ache before the end of the tanda?
*How can I relax my upper body when my back is aching from the effort to match my partners's posture and maintain a connection? Help me out of this strait-jacket!
*As I am in a very slight leaning position my core muscles are working far harder to support my posture than they do when I am upright in my own axis as I can't use balance to support my spine as much.
*Am I giving too little/ too much weight to suit him?
*Is my R arm relaxed enough for him or too floppy?
*How can I find time to respond fully to the music when my attention is taken up with maintaining the connection?

Very little chance of play with all that going on in my head! But I'd like to know what people would suggest for fostering play in close embrace.

I think dancing in a nuevo style would free me from many of these preoccupations, although its slowness is a huge challenge to balance and weight-transfer management. (But I don't mind those!)
 

Peaches

Well-Known Member
#30
I don't think much "play" happens until after technical issues have been thoroughly sorted out. "Play" mainly happens when people are feeling relaxed and natural with the dance process and each other.

For me, close embrace sets up a lot of new technical problems, such as:

*He wants an ocho. How can I disassociate my body enough to carry it out without disrupting the embrace too much and find the space to step without kicking him?
*So he opens out the embrace to give me space - how do I settle back into it smoothly and seamlessly?
*How can I find a comfortable place for my left arm that won't ache before the end of the tanda?
*How can I relax my upper body when my back is aching from the effort to match my partners's posture and maintain a connection? Help me out of this strait-jacket!
*As I am in a very slight leaning position my core muscles are working far harder to support my posture than they do when I am upright in my own axis as I can't use balance to support my spine as much.
*Am I giving too little/ too much weight to suit him?
*Is my R arm relaxed enough for him or too floppy?
*How can I find time to respond fully to the music when my attention is taken up with maintaining the connection?

Very little chance of play with all that going on in my head! But I'd like to know what people would suggest for fostering play in close embrace.

I think dancing in a nuevo style would free me from many of these preoccupations, although its slowness is a huge challenge to balance and weight-transfer management. (But I don't mind those!)
I'm not sure what advice I can give you, but just reading through your list of problems with close embrace makes me wonder a bit. Are you taking private lessons to learn close embrace? Because some of those things raised major red flags for me.

Specifically:
  • The dissociation and finding space for ochos.
  • Closing up the embrace after dancing open for a while. This is something the man is responsible for. Allow your left arm to move back to a closed position as need be--don't get it "stuck" on his upper arm--and let him close the distance.
  • Finding a comfortable place for your left arm. What are you doing with yours that it's so uncomfortable? Around his neck/shoulders, on his spine, along his right side/back...all of the above. So long as you're not pulling, it's all good.
  • Your back really shouldn't be aching, unless the guy is doing something wrong. That's a really, really bad sign. Similarly, your core shouldn't be working that much harder to support yourself. Yes, of course, stand upright...but the posture should be relaxed and mostly natural. Also, this shouldn't be taking so much effort that you can't concentrate on other parts of the music.
  • Regarding your right arm--achieving the right tone will take time. IME, there's not much you can do to practice it or achieve it. Trust that it will happen, and don't worry about it. And, if it makes you feel any better, know that other people still struggle with this, even after they've gotten it.*
*By "other people" I mean at least me. I have nights where I just cannot get the tension out of my right shoulder. And, to be sure, it is exacerbated by some leaders.
From what you've written, it sounds like you're a beginner. Please, please take some good lessons with a a good teacher who can address these issues. Because I really have to wonder what's going on that you're having these problems.
 
#31
From what you've written, it sounds like you're a beginner
Mahdalia's not a beginner, and I think she's pretty good at this dancing stuff personally; so it may be a question of interpretation...

Looking at the queries:
I don't think much "play" happens until after technical issues have been thoroughly sorted out. "Play" mainly happens when people are feeling relaxed and natural with the dance process and each other.
Or, if the woman suddenly gets an attack of the dreaded GrrrrlPowerItis... :)

For me, close embrace sets up a lot of new technical problems, such as:

*He wants an ocho. How can I disassociate my body enough to carry it out without disrupting the embrace too much and find the space to step without kicking him?
Ochos are tougher in close, definitely. Not sure what the answer is here - "take smaller steps" seems too obvious...

*So he opens out the embrace to give me space - how do I settle back into it smoothly and seamlessly?
I agree with Peaches - the embrace invitation / re-invitation is up to the leader. He needs to pause, get comfortable with the embrace change, then start again.

*How can I find a comfortable place for my left arm that won't ache before the end of the tanda?
Left arm? Are your leaders making you hold it up or something?

*How can I relax my upper body when my back is aching from the effort to match my partners's posture and maintain a connection? Help me out of this strait-jacket!
Ummm. Not sure.

*As I am in a very slight leaning position my core muscles are working far harder to support my posture than they do when I am upright in my own axis as I can't use balance to support my spine as much.
I'd guess, at your stage, you can maybe ease up a bit on the leaning-by-default thing in close embrace, and get a bit more on your axis?

Very little chance of play with all that going on in my head! But I'd like to know what people would suggest for fostering play in close embrace.
Mmm. Dunno. Ask me again in 5-6 years.
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#32
I don't think much "play" happens until after technical issues have been thoroughly sorted out.

"Play" mainly happens when people are feeling relaxed and natural with the dance process and each other.!)
RE: your first sentence; my experience is that learning improves and some of the technical problems go away when people start to play! Playin produces relaxation and feeling comfortable not necessarily the other away around.





But I'd like to know what people would suggest for fostering play in close embrace..!)
I havent a clue; I enjoy dancing close; but I dont think it is conducive to an interplay between leader and follower; its more you do what I lead, and if you make a step that I am not expecting most likely you could throw us both off balance.
 
#33
Re: playing in close (!)
I havent a clue; I enjoy dancing close; but I dont think it is conducive to an interplay between leader and follower; its more you do what I lead, and if you make a step that I am not expecting most likely you could throw us both off balance.
Yeah, that was my thought also.

There's a lot of scope for interpretation / play when leading in nuevo. To me, that'd be done in a similar way to other dances; you lead something but leave it up to the follower to determine things like timing / embellishments. Obvious examples are boleos / ochos.

But I don't see how that'd work in close hold - embellishments sure, but timing alterations? I think that could go horribly wrong.

So yes, I guess "greater opportunity to play" could well be a motivation for dancing nuevo. Ye Gods, are we back on topic?!?
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
#34
Close embrace is not the same!

What is Nuevo for you? Two things make me wonder:

1) As it turned out, for the majority of you, Nuevo seems to be the same as open embrace and viejo (classico) is identified with close embrace TA.

2) Only very few responded to the music as main fact to distinguish the styles, the mood, and the specific movements.

But, for me close embrace and open embrace are nearly the same, bc. either depend on a parallel shoulder frame. The V-hold (Salón embrace) is the counterpart, because it depends on a flexible, and triangular shoulder frame. So, close embrace (in the sense of Apilado) and close embrace (in the sense of Salón) are not the same.

Any comments?
 
#37
I don't think much "play" happens until after technical issues have been thoroughly sorted out. "Play" mainly happens when people are feeling relaxed and natural with the dance process and each other.

For me, close embrace sets up a lot of new technical problems, such as:

*He wants an ocho. How can I disassociate my body enough to carry it out without disrupting the embrace too much and find the space to step without kicking him?
*So he opens out the embrace to give me space - how do I settle back into it smoothly and seamlessly?
*How can I find a comfortable place for my left arm that won't ache before the end of the tanda?
*How can I relax my upper body when my back is aching from the effort to match my partners's posture and maintain a connection? Help me out of this strait-jacket!
*As I am in a very slight leaning position my core muscles are working far harder to support my posture than they do when I am upright in my own axis as I can't use balance to support my spine as much.
*Am I giving too little/ too much weight to suit him?
*Is my R arm relaxed enough for him or too floppy?
*How can I find time to respond fully to the music when my attention is taken up with maintaining the connection?

Very little chance of play with all that going on in my head! But I'd like to know what people would suggest for fostering play in close embrace.

I think dancing in a nuevo style would free me from many of these preoccupations, although its slowness is a huge challenge to balance and weight-transfer management. (But I don't mind those!)
I think everyone’s concept of open and closed embrace is different. Close embrace is not necessarily what you see in the crowded milongas of BsAs or in your local milongas with the woman hanging all over the man arm draped down his back. The concept of salon as I was taught is a style that moves from closed embrace to open and back. A lot of your questions can be answered by simply watching a few videos on YT of salon dancers. They move smoothly from open to closed keeping the balance and axis, the woman’s hand moves from his shoulder to his forearm in such a subtle way you hardly notice. In this style of close embrace you can be lead to do pretty much any figure with ease if you have a skilled leader.
I have personally formed a strong opinion about learning this style of tango and here is my reasoning.
If you only learn close embrace you will have a hard time transitioning to open. The same holds true with open embrace or Nuevo you’ll find it difficult to dance closed. If you learn salon first and I mean learn it well you will be able to travel the world and dance any style of tango from the crowded milongas of BsAs to the open styles of nuevo.

Actually you can watch the 2009 BsAs competition that just ended. One of the rules is that the salon competition is danced entirely in a close embrace. You will not see anyone off balance and everyone is “playing” with ease.
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#38
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Actually you can watch the 2009 BsAs competition that just ended. One of the rules is that the salon competition is danced entirely in a close embrace. You will not see anyone off balance and everyone is “playing” with ease.
dont agree with that at all, No-one is doing anything that resembles playing. It all looks deadly serious; its a competition after all.
 
#39
dont agree with that at all, No-one is doing anything that resembles playing. It all looks deadly serious; its a competition after all.

You and I seem to have a difference of opinion as to what “playing” is. How about this …everyone seems to be dancing in a manner as to not disturb others as they move in the same direction pausing occasionally to execute a stationary figure before returning to smoothly walking in the line of dance. The part where they stop to do a little figure is generally thought of as “playing” as opposed to just walking.
Out of curiosity I would like to hear you’re definition of playing.
 

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