Motivations for studying Tango Nuevo

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#62
there's quite a few tradionalists that are like reformed smokers;

a few years ago they used to play and dance to Gotan and now they rant on about its gotta be Orquesta Ricardo Tanturi with canto Enrique Campos recording by RCA Victor Music by Raúl Kaplún and lyrics by José María Suñé recorded on Avenide del Abbeye 17th November 1943
..... yawn yawn
 
#63
No. The problem is that no matter how many times anyone points out the difference between a rude couple with no floorcraft versus characteristics inherent in a particular style of AT, hbboogie will never get it...because he refuses to.

Peaches I do understand there are problems with all styles of tango when it comes to floorcraft.
I also understand that traditional styles of tango move in the line of dance and most people adhere to that rule although some don’t which tends to disrupt the balance of nature.

Now I am only speaking from personal experience. I have yet to see a single nuevo couple dance in the line of dance without disturbing the movement of the group.

So lets review:

Sometimes traditional tango dancers disrupt the floor.
Nuevo dancers disrupt the floor all the time.

And I’ve said it a few times on this forum and I’ll say it again for your benefit.
I am not against Nuevo Tango.
I don’t think Nuevo can be danced along side traditional styles of tango because of the way nuevo is danced.

If I show up at your ballroom dance and every time a foxtrot is played I stand in the line of dance and do a swing I’d upset a lot of ballroom dancers including you but hey that's how I like to dance to foxtrot.
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
#64
Wow, this is one of the most confusing threads I've read on here... and yet fascinating because of that.

. . .

So.. if I'm dancing playful, rhythmic tango, in a predominantly close embrace, to Gotan project, with safe & considerate floorcraft, expressing the energy and feeling of the music in the rhythm and style of movement and in dance elements including ganchos, boleos, volcadas, colgadas, etc when there is space to do so, adapting my embrace as necessary to allow myself and my partner to express what we feel and hear from the music... what on earth are we dancing?
Well l do those moves, but stay in close embrace (at least for the most part). Does that make me one of those nuevo dancers who disrupt the floor all the time, or just snobby elitist inconsiderate scum?

:confused:
 

Ampster

Active Member
#65
OK, I'm just enjoying this so I need to jump in, just because... :rolleyes:

...just so we know what were talking about here

Originally Posted by Dave Bailey
But that's a long way from saying "All nuevo dancers are rude inconsiderate scum" or whatever.
Here's the "Nuevo dancers are rude inconsiderate scum" :D

My take on this is this is that, if these nuevo peeps all dance together in their own setting, its not a problem. Just like what you see here. Its when they decide to do this stuff in a "Milonguero" setting is when problems crop up.

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"And all "traditional" dancers are snobby elitist inconsiderate scum" ;)
He're's the "Traditional dancers are snobby elitist inconsiderate scum" ;)

Now in Seattle, sometimes our milongas look like this. Not a problem when everyone dances close embrace. Its when the above "Nuevo" types come to this environment, and dance like they were doing in the video above, that causes consternation.

Don't get me wrong. There are milongueros that also do not know how to navigate and generally are "Proboscis intruded A-holes" also. It's not the style, it's technique and awareness of the environments that cause enmity.


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My point is that you can mix these styles in the different milongas, as long as you follow what the general rules are in AT, appropriate to the venue you are in. Its fine to dance nuevo, as long as you can dance SMALL in a milonguero place. Its fine to dance milonuero in a nuevo place, since you don't dance large anyway. Just make sure you know your giros and cortadas as the line of dance is "Funky" in a nuevo place... ADAPTATION is the key to co-existence.

And, in the end, we're all just "Tango scum" aren't we?
 

bastet

Active Member
#66
OK, I'm just enjoying this so I need to jump in, just because... :rolleyes:

...just so we know what were talking about here



Here's the "Nuevo dancers are rude inconsiderate scum" :D

My take on this is this is that, if these nuevo peeps all dance together in their own setting, its not a problem. Just like what you see here. Its when they decide to do this stuff in a "Milonguero" setting is when problems crop up.

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He're's the "Traditional dancers are snobby elitist inconsiderate scum" ;)

Now in Seattle, sometimes our milongas look like this. Not a problem when everyone dances close embrace. Its when the above "Nuevo" types come to this environment, and dance like they were doing in the video above, that causes consternation.

Don't get me were there are milongueros that also do not know how to navigate and generally are "Proboscis intruded A-holes" also. It's not the style, it's technique and awareness of the environments that cause enmity.


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And, in the end, we're all just "Tango scum" aren't we?
I tend to think the problem starts when people only learn one style, which seems fairly common here in the US.

Someone (Maybe Zoopsia) stated somewhere that earlier in the evening in BsAs, when there was more room, people danced a little more "freely" with their movements, more like what HBBoogie described going from open to closed and back, then when it became crowded, everyone had both the training (Very important) and the common sense (also important) to switch to strictly closed dancing (and the appropriate subset of movements that works well in strictly closed).

I would also point out, on a personal note, that if what I saw in the first video is indicative of what "Nuevo" styling has become, I am glad I drifted away from that. It looks like the worst case on manhandling ever. When I saw a video a couple of years ago with Chicho and Juana (and others) where the follows looked like a little "rag doll" being dragged about rudely, I became quite dis-enchancted with Nuevo's direction, since I prefer the more flowing/connected movement that seemed to be from the Chicho/Eugenia period.

And in the second video, I didn't see much of anything I would call manhandling or ladies being treated like puppets.

I would suggest that the people who may feel that they are puppets or rag dolls in close embrace, probably would also be treated much the same by their partner in open, but have the benefit of distance to assist them.

Both are challenges, both have areas for creativity that I admire, but they are also not the same creativity and require slightly different approaches.

So for people to say that play does not exist in close is weird for me, as I tend to think of play in close coming from a different mind-set and different way of thinking than play in open.
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#67
Now I am only speaking from personal experience. I have yet to see a single nuevo couple dance in the line of dance without disturbing the movement of the group.

Nuevo dancers disrupt the floor all the time.

And I’ve said it a few times on this forum and I’ll say it again for your benefit.
I am not against Nuevo Tango.
I don’t think Nuevo can be danced along side traditional styles of tango because of the way nuevo is danced.

.
I think that if you conclude that something is alway true based on your experience it amounts to prejudice; I have seen good nuevo dancers dance inside a small space on a crowded floor and I've certainly danced with lots of "traditonal" movement in a tango vals where the space on the dance floor allowed it.

The moment you use the words "Nuevo Dancers and all the time"
I would label you as a "traditional" dancer because I regard your view as biased and because in my experience the people who call themselves traditional have an axe to grind; like i said earlier; reformed smokers are the least tolerant of people who smoke.
 
#68
I don’t think Nuevo can be danced along side traditional styles of tango because of the way nuevo is danced.
It is definitely possible, but it requires some skills:
- *permanent* attention to everyone around you,
- *defensive* dancing:
-- maintaining 1-2 steps distance as security zone,
-- adapting the size and energy of movements according to dance floor population (smallest is "Neo-Milonguero")
-- if necessary *immediate* stopping/reversing/aborting of any movement,
-- staying in outmost lane, progressing in line of dance
-- leading dangerous things very carefully: boleos only in corners or linear boleos only in definitely open spaces,
-- shielding other people by leader's body from dangerous moves

All that can be very much stress...

But even if you are dancing pure Milonguero, you will need those techniques for self-defense, when floorcraft around you is bad.
 
#69
Well I go half way on this. I dont think Nuevo can or should be danced on a densely packed dance floor. The tough question is, how empty does the dance floor need to be to allow couples to dance in a "Nuevo" style? Personally, I find that on a reasonably crowded dance floor it's also very disruptive. It's not the boleos I find disruptive. It's more the quick changes of direction. If you're dancing close embrace, it's like trying to drive a family saloon when everyone around you is playing at being dodgems...
 
#70
What are people rebelling against that they should feel the tango they have been taught is denying them freedom?

All things being equal, why would you choose to study tango nuevo instead of the broad umbrella of classical salon tango? What is it that is really good about the style (beyond the opportunity for extroverts)? How is it that so many should choose to go nuevo instead of chasing the stereotype tango that first attracted them to the hobby? Face it, when you say tango to people in general, they usually think of ballroom strutting and powerful dancing.

Well lets be honest now ... if you come from a salsa or a jive background, you would choose to study tango nuevo because it's got more "moves" in it, wouldnt you?

To me ,salon tango is about playing with the rhythm of the music, while nuevo is about playing with the dance itself (using the energy of movement and playing with ones axis). Plenty of younger people start tango because they want to play with the form of the dance. Its only later once they've started to really understand the music that they begin to move away from this.
 
#71
It's more the quick changes of direction. If you're dancing close embrace, it's like trying to drive a family saloon when everyone around you is playing at being dodgems...
I don't think quick changes in direction are neccessarily any more a feature of nuevo or salon. In my opinion many of the turning moves done in Nuevo are done more slowly. The main problem from my experience is that the moves are done much bigger.

But I'm getting the distinct feeling that if you dance Salon and cannot recognise a style that is disruptive then it must be Nuevo.

I fell into the reverse trap on Saturday night some guy was dancing some weird style, which I didn't think was Nuevo so it had to be Salon. But quite honestly thinking about it now I don't think it was either but just some weird style he has contrived.

He was the second most disruptive person on the floor. The most disruptive was a guy who was dancing Salon. He had sudden changes in direction all the time and he was moving at 90 degrees across the LOD over the three lanes that had established.
 
#72
Thank you all for your comments so far.

I'm going to drop in a viewpoint that will hopefully steer people back to the intangibles of the style and what makes it so attractive to some.

Firstly, it has been pointed out that "tango nuevo" primarily referred to the re-analysis of tango that happened a while back (we'll turn a blind eye to the musical side, Piazzolla et. al.). While that may be the case, we all know what we're talking about, and there doesn't appear to be a suitable label for it. It's flexing and liberal embraces, it's bouncing legs and wraps in every direction you can think of, and sometimes charging around like you're going to miss your aeroplane home.

I think the consequences of being a bad or disrespectful nuevo dancer are far more dramatic than in classic tango. The fundamental principle of this style of dancing is freedom and letting momentum run its course. Naturally this leads to much more difficulty in containing the dance if one is intent on doing high energy moves. Hence the bad reputation.

I happen to believe that this nuevo style has a higher minimum level of skill required for the dance to be nicely controlled, free and expressive. At the very least I believe there are many more bad nuevo dancers (i.e. dangerous) than classical. I think the teaching approach and top level dancing more strongly reinforces the apparent need to get your feet off the floor, and the relaxed technique increases your reach.

A hypothesis to bounce of the assembled:

a) Classical tango typically feels better the less you do. The intimacy and intensity is easily destroyed by too much technical challenge. This puts a brake on the choreography ambitions of dancers in the form of "Moaning Tanguera".

b) Nuevo tango feels better the more you do. The fluid and light embrace never achieves the same intensity and sharing, making close work potentially less rewarding. Doing more puts more energy into the free legs and makes the whole dance more true to principle (e.g. most dancers are basically faking their boleos).

Please argue with this proposition all you want. At the moment I only have my own perspective - that my most sublime dances were in a potent close embrace with barely a boleo or gancho to be seen. I have had some excellent nuevo dances too, but they have never achieved the same ecstatic high, even while they have been entertaining and expressive. Think of it as "We move nicely together, but you are over there". I am open to the possibility that I am significantly better at one style than the other, but it is almost like this style of dance has a different flavour to it. I can have icecream sundae with sprinkles but what I really want is steak... perhaps parillada por dos.
 

Steve Pastor

Moderator
Staff member
#74
Think of it as "We move nicely together, but you are over there".
Very well said!
What is sad, too, to me, is trying to dance "close embrace" with someone and feeling the same way.

I may come back and comment more on the "more intense", and I think more demanding apilado close embrace. Or, maybe someone wants to start a thread.
(Actually, I think the axis and rotation people refer to in nuevo is as important in apilado. Without it, you dance only a subset of the possibilities.)
 
#75
Now I am only speaking from personal experience. I have yet to see a single nuevo couple dance in the line of dance without disturbing the movement of the group.
If you're talking about a couple dancing nuevo, when everyone else is not, then I can understand that.

But that's not the same as saying that nuevo is automatically disruptive. At most, it says that the two styles don't mix well. Which is a reasonable argument to make.

So lets review:

Sometimes traditional tango dancers disrupt the floor.
Nuevo dancers disrupt the floor all the time.
No, "Nuevo dancers and trad dancers mixing disrupts the floor".

It's possible for groups of dancers, all dancing nuevo, not too disrupt each other - I've seen it happen. It doesn't look as tidy and communal as a group of traditional dancers, but then it wouldn't by the very nature of the dance.

And I’ve said it a few times on this forum and I’ll say it again for your benefit.
I am not against Nuevo Tango.
I don’t think Nuevo can be danced along side traditional styles of tango because of the way nuevo is danced.
Yes, I think you have a point.
 
#76
OMy take on this is this is that, if these nuevo peeps all dance together in their own setting, its not a problem. Just like what you see here. Its when they decide to do this stuff in a "Milonguero" setting is when problems crop up.
Good grief.

I think we're all agreeing with each other here.

That's a first. :D
 
#78
So from the above posts:
-To some nuevo appears to equal bad floorcraft, inconsiderate dancing, rude behaviour etc
-To some nuevo is rebellion against some established order or set of rules
-To some nuevo is open embrace
-To some nuevo is using certain "moves" for want of a better word
-To some nuevo is the music itself
-To some nuevo is a "feeling" of the dance, driven by the style of music
-To some nuevo is dancing "big" or "energetic"
-To some nuevo is more playful (with three different definitions of play so far)
In very much the same way for some getting behind the wheel of an open top Bad Man's Wagon is a means to "mush-op" the roads by exercising scant regard for other motorists, the pedestrians, the old dear walking her poodle and yes, even the red light. STOP blaming the tool and start focussing on the tradesman. A bruised knee is not the result of another dancing nuevo, but as a result of the bloody-minded bar steward with an under-developed regard for their fellow human being that happens to be dancing nuevo. A woman barged in front of me this morning. I pointed out that there was a queue, she ignored my protest and shuffled her oversized a*se onto the bus anyway. Being bigger, stronger and fiercer than her I could've whacked and then thumped her into another time zone...but no, I decided to let karma be her slayer. But do you see? It has nowt to do with the milonga but everything - EVERYTHING - to with the trough in which the pig was brought up in and thus how that pig views life on the outside once he gets out.
 
#80
In very much the same way for some getting behind the wheel of an open top Bad Man's Wagon is a means to "mush-op" the roads by exercising scant regard for other motorists, the pedestrians, the old dear walking her poodle and yes, even the red light. STOP blaming the tool and start focussing on the tradesman. A bruised knee is not the result of another dancing nuevo, but as a result of the bloody-minded bar steward with an under-developed regard for their fellow human being that happens to be dancing nuevo. A woman barged in front of me this morning. I pointed out that there was a queue, she ignored my protest and shuffled her oversized a*se onto the bus anyway. Being bigger, stronger and fiercer than her I could've whacked and then thumped her into another time zone...but no, I decided to let karma be her slayer. But do you see? It has nowt to do with the milonga but everything - EVERYTHING - to with the trough in which the pig was brought up in and thus how that pig views life on the outside once he gets out.
Hear, hear! Like that 'Bad Man's Wagon' - nice one! Can you think of an acryonym for Mercedes? Have noticed it creeping in.... :D
 

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