Motivations for studying Tango Nuevo

Well what fun is that?
... guys leading the swinging boleos, ganchos, lifts, and stuff, he might not be hitting people, because the other leaders are doing everything they can to avoid him. However, this is distracting them from enjoying their own dance. ...
And who ever said nuevo was "swinging boleos, ganchos, lifts". We are back to self fulfilling definitions. I can certainly lead boleos and ganchos (I _never_ lead lifts in a crowd - that's just stupid) that also go totally unnoticed by my neighbor, and occupy no more space and are no more threatening to my neighbors, _even_ perceptually, than molinettes and ocho-cortados.

Now if CE to you is nothing but small steps in the LOD and steps in place or simple holds while waiting for the floor ahead of you to clear, you have an excellent point. But for 95% of the CE dancers, this is not enough.
 

Peaches

Well-Known Member
Well what fun is that?

;)

Actually, I think what the Captain is getting at, is that when you have one of these guys leading the swinging boleos, ganchos, lifts, and stuff, he might not be hitting people, because the other leaders are doing everything they can to avoid him. However, this is distracting them from enjoying their own dance. Sure, there were no collisions, but my criteria for success is a little higher than that.

Now if someone like TN can do his things and not cause a disruption, then I'm fine with it. The point is that no collisions does not equate to no disruptions (at least not for some of us leaders).
I am in 100% agreement. For me the key word is "discretion."

On a huge open floor, with tons of room, with few couples, big movements can be done without collisions and without disruptions. On a smaller, more crowded floor--not appropriate.

On a smaller, more crowded floor, smaller nuevo movements can be done without ever disrupting the flow of the dance. Think of...er, whatchacallit...walking sacada thingies. (Technical term, that.) Gentle, minor leg displacements blended into an otherwise straightforward walk. No harm, no foul; no collisions, no disruptions. But! Still a nuevo move! Or a molinete...generally considered a perfectly acceptable move for reasonably close floors. If the guy throws a small sacada in there...again, a nuevo move that doesn't disrupt anything or anyone. Or, if standing there waiting for room in front to move (b/c of some jerk doing large nuevo moves, heh...), nothing wrong with doing a small volcada.

I just refuse to believe it has anything to do with the style itself, and everything to do with how and when those style-specific moves are executed. (That a ton of people in the world are clueless twits is another issue altogether.)
 
In all seriousness, I meant what I said about good nuevo going unnoticed by the I dance CE only crowd, especially when the nuevo is danced in a close embrace! And wrt trust, how can the CE dancer in front of me be trusted not to do an ocho-cortado that 1. stops his forward motion and disrupts the ronde, and 2. doesn't cause his follow to step counter LOD and into my space? Etc.

So lets pick one. Say a volcada. In all seriousness, how can you, without crawling around on the floor to watch what my partner's feet did, tell that I didn't lead a _very_ traditional, very common, close embrace puente?

Once we've done this one, we can go through the rest if you would like.
lol cant wait...

OK I'll take the ocho cortado first. What - you mean the CE dancer isnt actually allowed to stop and do a move in place? Even if the leader does take a step back he's leading the lady circularly. It's a fairly predictable sort of step for a CE dancer to lead. On the other hand, who knows what direction you're going to go in when dancing tango nuevo?

No problem with you leading a "puente". It might be a bit "uncool" and "minimalist" for some of your colleagues though .. lol :p
 

Peaches

Well-Known Member
Oh, good god. This thread has gotten going again...and it's gotten me drinking a martini in the afternoon...by myself. LOL.

(To be fair I'd have had the martini anyhow...but it's still nice to "blame" someone else. :) )
 
lol cant wait...

OK I'll take the ocho cortado first. What - you mean the CE dancer isnt actually allowed to stop and do a move in place? Even if the leader does take a step back he's leading the lady circularly. It's a fairly predictable sort of step for a CE dancer to lead. On the other hand, who knows what direction you're going to go in when dancing tango nuevo?

No problem with you leading a "puente". It might be a bit "uncool" and "minimalist" for some of your colleagues though .. lol :p
I was intending to work through the nuevo lexicon, but I'm happy to deal with the CE thing as well.

So, if a CE dancer can stop and do a move in place, what is the issue if I do the same? Sauce for the goose, the gander, the whatever.

And an O-C is commonly lead so that the follow's first step with her right foot extends beyond the leader's back most foot, resulting in her stepping counter LOD. In addition, roughly half of the CE dancers I know don't lead the follow's next step, with her left foot, circularly. Rather they open with a side step (which is counter LOD) while the follow also executes a counter LOD side step.

Now I actually have absolutely NO problem with that. The question I have have is why would you have any issue at all with a "nuevo" move that occupies no more space and is no more disruptive than that??

An example would be a single axis turn to the leader's left into a _small_ colgada that is not marked until the follow's backside has rotated past the couple behind me and so that it is perpendicular to the LOD (I'm in the outer lane for this), and then smoothly converted into an ordinary LOD step? And a small colgada _doesn't_ require that the follow do some blown out leg thing. That again is not a nuevo follow, just, under crowded floor conditions, a bad dancer!
 
Oh, good god. This thread has gotten going again...and it's gotten me drinking a martini in the afternoon...by myself. LOL.

(To be fair I'd have had the martini anyhow...but it's still nice to "blame" someone else. :) )
I'm west coast myself, so it's even earlier for me, but I might just join you!
 

Peaches

Well-Known Member
I'm west coast myself, so it's even earlier for me, but I might just join you!
WC? Really? Why in blazes did I think you were in Europe somewhere?

Obviously I haven't been drinking enough. Oooh, will you look at that!? Time for the second (and, sadly, final) martini!
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
And who ever said nuevo was "swinging boleos, ganchos, lifts". We are back to self fulfilling definitions. I can certainly lead boleos and ganchos (I _never_ lead lifts in a crowd - that's just stupid) that also go totally unnoticed by my neighbor, and occupy no more space and are no more threatening to my neighbors, _even_ perceptually, than molinettes and ocho-cortados.

Now if CE to you is nothing but small steps in the LOD and steps in place or simple holds while waiting for the floor ahead of you to clear, you have an excellent point. But for 95% of the CE dancers, this is not enough.
You left out the rest of my post. The TN I was referring to is you.
Now if someone like TN can do his things and not cause a disruption, then I'm fine with it. The point is that no collisions does not equate to no disruptions (at least not for some of us leaders).
FWIW, I sometimes do lead close embrace colgadas, legwraps, and volcadas, (although sometimes all I basically do are walking, rocksteps and turns).
 
You left out the rest of my post. The TN I was referring to is you. FWIW, I sometimes do lead close embrace colgadas, legwraps, and volcadas, (although sometimes all I basically do are walking, rocksteps and turns).
Got it. Sorry 'bout that. Sometimes I go a little crazy, no make that nearly all the time, when I hear someone equating tangonuevo to inconsiderate and rude dancing. But you sound like more than a little bit of closet nuevo to me. LOL.

I'm also a skier and the same cr@p happened when snowboarders started taking to the ski slopes (BTW, I am not a snowboarder). The issue really was age discrimination in disguise. It was wild out-of-control teenagers who predominately rode boards. Over time, as the average age of the boarders has increased, skiers finally figured out that snow boards are not the problem. The problem is young people.

I suspect that the average age of the nuevo dancers is much lower than the CE dancers and we are seeing the same thing in Tango, where youthful exuberance is castigated in the name of nuevotango. For my money, bad dancing by any other name would smell as foul.
 
WC? Really? Why in blazes did I think you were in Europe somewhere?

Obviously I haven't been drinking enough. Oooh, will you look at that!? Time for the second (and, sadly, final) martini!
Perhaps because of the timing of my activity on the board? I work from home, so when I'm blocked, I post. I never post in the evening cause I typically dance 7-days a week and that would screw with my dancing.

If you switch to red wine, you could have more. I mean, consider the health benefits. Red wine and small piece of dark chocolate make for a most excellent lunch.
 

Subliminal

Well-Known Member
I'm still a little confused on what constitutes nuevo vs salon. :) I know neuvo is also a teaching method... but where is the line drawn as far as steps? I thought sacadas were part of the tango canon, but I've seen them mentioned as neuvo. And boleos I also thought were old school... or is it only if you do them above waist height or stab someone do they become nuevo? :D How about ganchos? I'm pretty sure colgadas, legwraps, and volcadas are considered nuevo, but my teacher has told me there are a few cases where mini-colgadas are within the salon tradition.
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
I'm still a little confused on what constitutes nuevo vs salon. :) I know neuvo is also a teaching method... but where is the line drawn as far as steps? I thought sacadas were part of the tango canon, but I've seen them mentioned as neuvo. And boleos I also thought were old school... or is it only if you do them above waist height or stab someone do they become nuevo? :D How about ganchos? I'm pretty sure colgadas, legwraps, and volcadas are considered nuevo, but my teacher has told me there are a few cases where mini-colgadas are within the salon tradition.
Basically, it comes down to good vs evil. Example: low boleos (good) are salon, while the high boleos (evil) are nuevo.

Any questions?

:cool:
 
Got it. Sorry 'bout that. Sometimes I go a little crazy, no make that nearly all the time, when I hear someone equating tangonuevo to inconsiderate and rude dancing.

I'm also a skier and the same cr@p happened when snowboarders started taking to the ski slopes (BTW, I am not a snowboarder). The issue really was age discrimination in disguise. It was wild out-of-control teenagers who predominately rode boards. Over time, as the average age of the boarders has increased, skiers finally figured out that snow boards are not the problem. The problem is young people.

I suspect that the average age of the nuevo dancers is much lower than the CE dancers and we are seeing the same thing in Tango, where youthful exuberance is castigated in the name of nuevotango. For my money, bad dancing by any other name would smell as foul.
Well hey Im no close embrace paragon myself. I dont do it all the time. And I certainly dont miss out on some legwraps and social volcadas. This is not Argentina we're talking about.

Yes you're probably right - it's the younger ones who give everyone a bad reputation. What annoys me especially is when you find those idiots in the more "advanced" venues. You'd think there that people would adapt their dancing as the crowds got bigger. Well eventually they do. But it's like children. They need someone to come and tell them off before they get the message. :rolleyes:
 

Peaches

Well-Known Member
If you switch to red wine, you could have more. I mean, consider the health benefits. Red wine and small piece of dark chocolate make for a most excellent lunch.
Oh, god. And I thought I was in love before...

(I am rather fond of a sweet sparkling red sipped along with good dark chocolate.)
 

bastet

Active Member
For my money, bad dancing by any other name would smell as foul.
Fully agree there.

FWIW, I do dance mainly close embrace however I can appreciate that certain ganchos can be led under the space of the couple, as well as small back volcadas and a few other interesting things involving rocking turns in cross system that you don't tend to see in what I think of as the "traditional" Milonguero repertoire.

Interestingly enough, we have a rather large floorcraft problem in my area and yet it was a "Nuevo" couple who came to the area last year and stayed a few weeks to substitute for someone that apparently complained that most people needed to learn how to dance small here. (We did dance at one milonga where they attended (typically extremely crowded/chaotic) and I thought they did quite well the floor. I tend to think of Nuevo as having certain characteristics of musical approach as well as some "signature steps" and their approach certainly fit, but they were able to dance small as far as I could see.

On an equal note, some of the people in the area (whom I would not consider to be dancing with "Nuevo" styling, are just as dreadful with regards to floorcraft, repsect and navigation as people tend to label "Nuevo" dancers so by no means (at least here) are non-Nuevo dancers immune, but it does tend to be more prevalent here among the people who I know are attending the "Nuevo" teacher's classes.

I think it comes down mostly to training, and somewhat to exuberance of youth (though I see more than a few examples of older "nuevo" dancers here that don't bear this out- it's strictly training (lack of) in those instances).
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
Well hey Im no close embrace paragon myself. I dont do it all the time. And I certainly dont miss out on some legwraps and social volcadas. This is not Argentina we're talking about.

Yes you're probably right - it's the younger ones who give everyone a bad reputation. What annoys me especially is when you find those idiots in the more "advanced" venues. You'd think there that people would adapt their dancing as the crowds got bigger. Well eventually they do. But it's like children. They need someone to come and tell them off before they get the message. :rolleyes:
Unfortunately, it's not just the younger ones. There are a couple teachers (leaders) I know, who are an absolute menace to be near (and there are typically women lining up to dance with them, because they do an excellent job of leading the flashy moves).
 
Hope I am not breaking any rule by bringing up this old thread.

I dance with leaders who dance all different styles. I don't really know how to draw the line between "nuevo" and "traditional". I think I was lead mostly traditional styles. However, I have clearly danced nuevo with two of the leaders. I enjoyed dancing with them. I particularly enjoyed the dance when it was accompanied with alternative tango music. I don't think it was the look of it attracted me, because we danced in the "neuvo" room with a few other couples dancing, and hardly any audience. I enjoyed the feeling of the wild flowing motion with the music. It seems to be more thrilling than emotional.

However, since being seen doing that neuvo dance, one of my regular leaders never invited me again. I know that he is very much opposed to the showy moves. I was not going to do those "showy" moves when dancing with him. Too bad, but Oh well, I don't regret. I will continue enjoy both, or should I say, all good dances.
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
..don't really know how to draw the line between "nuevo" and "traditional"...
Hi LoveT, is there actually a line...

As a follower you should dance within the style frame the leader is giving. You should not break out and try to interprete on your own and parallel to the interpretation of the lead.

But, as a follower you can choose the leader that fits best to your idea of interpreting the style of a certain piece of music. (And I as a leader also have my favorite dance partners for Nuevo, for Neo, for Tango bravo, or Tango lento.)

A little story: The argentine ambassador in my hometown was a friend of mine. But he did not like contemporary tango at all, but his young wife did so. So when at one a clock in the morning the NeoTango tanda came, I had the chance to inherit her for a while. So it was kind of our "running gag" he could escape to the bar and I got this prominent dancer.

cheers
OD
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
A little story: The argentine ambassador in my hometown was a friend of mine. But he did not like contemporary tango at all, but his young wife did so. So when at one a clock in the morning the NeoTango tanda came, I had the chance to inherit her for a while. So it was kind of our "running gag" he could escape to the bar and I got this prominent dancer.
Lucky you.
 

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