Not satisfied with my ocho cortado

#1
I feel that I have still many problems with the ocho cortado. I want first to describe how I view a typical ocho cortado: from the point of view of the follower:
- back with the right
- rebound forward with the left
- forward with the right and clockwise pivot
- sidestep to the left with the left
- rebound to the right with the right
- cross with the left.

The first thing I need to improve are the rebounds. I usually obtain the first one, but seldom the second one. I am wondering whether I need to provide a specific lead to initiate the rebound. Or is it a matter of timing of my own rebound?
 

Mladenac

Well-Known Member
#2
If you are a follower you don't provide anything except a feedback but this is not the issue here.

If you are asking as a leader do you know how to do a rocking step?
How good are you in rebounds?

At beginner level sequence is what you focus (timing can help if you can hear the music).
The more you dance you need to feel the rebound, but it takes time to listen to the follower and yourself to feel that.

And it is confusing how you can be rebounding to the right with the right.
If you are rebounding to the right are rebounding off the left leg to the right.
 
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#3
If you are a follower you don't provide anything except a feedback but this is not the issue here.
I am a beginning leader.

And it is confusing how you can be rebounding to the right with the right.
If you are rebounding to the right are rebounding off the left leg to the right.
Made a mistake. Indeed, the first rebound is with the right.
 

Mladenac

Well-Known Member
#4
I am a beginning leader.
Made a mistake. Indeed, the first rebound is with the right.
You are mixing leaders and followers steps.

Writing leader steps and followers steps so that the whole sequence set is clarified.

What is important in those rebounds is that you go 1/4 - 1/3 into the step.
If you go 1/2 into the step you don't have enough time and energy to be on time.

Ocho cortado at beginner level is a sequence and usually is lead and followed automatically.
 

Mladenac

Well-Known Member
#6
Well, that is exactly what I want to avoid. Besides, it doesn’t work. It does during the courses, but not in a practica for example.
That is an excellent start :cool:

At practica try to play with the speed of movement (without music at all).
And try to feel how you partner is moving and how you move.
How both of you use the floor, how much you push into and from the floor.
How your shoulders and torso is connected to the floor through the the feet.

You remember the Matrix scene where everything is a few times slower.
And then you start to feel everything and realizing what's the process.

Sequences are good to get the feeling of dancing,
the awareness of movement gives you ability to realize what is actually happening.
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
#7
- rebound forward with the left
- forward with the right and clockwise pivot
- sidestep to the left with the left
- rebound to the right with the right
- cross with the left
The basic steps for the leading part:

- rebote forward with LF
- turn cw 120°
- rebote sideways with RF
- turn back ccw
- close
- salida with LF
 
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Gssh

Well-Known Member
#8
I tend to think of the core of the ocho cortado as the change in direction of the follower:

The follower does a sidestep, and then returns on the same path, but with a backstep (which is usually led into a cross, but this is not neccessary). The easiest version of this is if the followers sidestep is cw around the leader, and then the backstep ccw around the leader.

If i were to work on this i personally would not worry about the first part of the conventional sequence too much, and just use whatever entry for the cw giro you are most fluent in)

and now the tricky questions start - i think there are actually three different ocho cortados with slightly different ideas:

1) there is a rebound from the sidestep into return-sidestep , and during the return sidestep the leaders upper body realigns, which also realigns the followers upper body, and morphs the sidestep into a backstep, and into the cross (the main attraction of this is the "snap" into the cross)

2) the giro is more flowy and round and the follower starts to align themselves for a backstep when they pass the middle axis, and the leader circularly reverses the flow of this backstep alignment into the backstep alignment in the other direction, and then walks that backstep into the cross (the main attraction here is what jan would describe as the butt-shaking)

3) the leader grounds the follower on their middle axis in the sidestep, by realigning the couples orientation changes the followers foot position from a sidestep to a front step, to a backstep to a front step to a backstep and repeat, till they get bored and they move from one of the followers middle axis backstep position into an actual backstep and cross (the main attraction is the followers footwork when changing alignments)

All three have different points of where the follower needs to feel the grounding, and the reversal of the direction, and all three are to some extent conditional on how the embrace is set and used, and what the dynamics of the giro are, but the key is always that the "direction" of a step changes due to the body alignment changing, despite the fact that the center of gravity/feet trace the exactly same path back.
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
#9
I feel that I have still many problems with the ocho cortado. I want first to describe how I view a typical ocho cortado: from the point of view of the follower:
- back with the right
- rebound forward with the left
- forward with the right and clockwise pivot
- sidestep to the left with the left
- rebound to the right with the right
- cross with the left.

The first thing I need to improve are the rebounds. I usually obtain the first one, but seldom the second one. I am wondering whether I need to provide a specific lead to initiate the rebound. Or is it a matter of timing of my own rebound?
Having not seen you do it, it's difficult for anyone here to say, but my guess is it's the timing of your lead.

BTW, the ocho cortado actually starts at the forward with her right, IMO. The rock step before her front is probably the easiest way to get her there, but not the only way. The forward step for the follower can also occur (for example) in the clockwise (or right) molinette.
 
#11
I tend to think of the core of the ocho cortado as the change in direction of the follower:

The follower does a sidestep, and then returns on the same path, but with a backstep (which is usually led into a cross, but this is not neccessary). The easiest version of this is if the followers sidestep is cw around the leader, and then the backstep ccw around the leader.

If i were to work on this i personally would not worry about the first part of the conventional sequence too much, and just use whatever entry for the cw giro you are most fluent in)

and now the tricky questions start - i think there are actually three different ocho cortados with slightly different ideas:

1) there is a rebound from the sidestep into return-sidestep , and during the return sidestep the leaders upper body realigns, which also realigns the followers upper body, and morphs the sidestep into a backstep, and into the cross (the main attraction of this is the "snap" into the cross)

2) the giro is more flowy and round and the follower starts to align themselves for a backstep when they pass the middle axis, and the leader circularly reverses the flow of this backstep alignment into the backstep alignment in the other direction, and then walks that backstep into the cross (the main attraction here is what jan would describe as the butt-shaking)

3) the leader grounds the follower on their middle axis in the sidestep, by realigning the couples orientation changes the followers foot position from a sidestep to a front step, to a backstep to a front step to a backstep and repeat, till they get bored and they move from one of the followers middle axis backstep position into an actual backstep and cross (the main attraction is the followers footwork when changing alignments)

All three have different points of where the follower needs to feel the grounding, and the reversal of the direction, and all three are to some extent conditional on how the embrace is set and used, and what the dynamics of the giro are, but the key is always that the "direction" of a step changes due to the body alignment changing, despite the fact that the center of gravity/feet trace the exactly same path back.
The way we were shown the ocho cortado is more linear than implied here. There are several suggestions here that I need to try out.
 
#12
View this short video, it will help you a lot:
Another version. In fact, it happened quite a few times that my partner had already completed the cruzada before I got her to do the first rebound. So, perhaps I should see this version as a nice adaptation in case it happens again, whether that is what I wanted or not. However, I will need to train the stop with the foot.
 

Gssh

Well-Known Member
#13
The way we were shown the ocho cortado is more linear than implied here. There are several suggestions here that I need to try out.
Another version. In fact, it happened quite a few times that my partner had already completed the cruzada before I got her to do the first rebound. So, perhaps I should see this version as a nice adaptation in case it happens again, whether that is what I wanted or not. However, I will need to train the stop with the foot.
Let me try to disentangle this more -

the ocho cortado as a element , taking out all the setup to make it easy is (maybe only in my opinion) , only the sidestep - to - backstep.

Lets assume the couple is oriented that the leader is looking north then the standard geometry is roughly:

1)some setup
2)follower is making a sidestep moving from north to south looking towards west
3)magic
4)follower is making a backstep (usually into a cross (but i am not sure if the cross is actually part of the core element, or more an adornment that makes the element look cooler - i almost aways do one, because without the cross it becomes a weird ochoish thing) moving from south to north looking towards south.

what the timing and details of the "magic" part is depends on what geometry is being used (which includes embrace, setup, and so on - and you can throw in adornments like the stop with the foot depending if the rest of the geometry supports it).

How the follower gets to the 2) part is pretty flexible - though pretty much all entries i can think of are based on the moulinette pattern (as there is pretty much no other way to get a sidestep from the flow of dance), so their n-s sidestep is usually preceded with a n-s frontstep, or for extra omph with a w-e frontstep, or- if you want the extra difficulty because the you are going somewhat against the dynamics of the movement - with an w-e backstep. (i am trying to think how a n-s backstep would look - i probably would set this up from a salida americana (but then i would have to do two steps against the line of dance - i'll have to think/dance about this).

How to get e.g. a follower to do a n-s frontstep is also flexible - rebounds, crosses, a front ocho from a salida americana, a w-e sidestep, and some of these options are more linear than others. I personally prefer (and recommend) curving - it requires less moving against the line of dance. I think (i will have to watch myself dancing the next time to be sure) that the way i use of the ocho cortado most often is to end a giro when in a tight spot - it takes somewhat less space than walking or ochoing out, and it is more fun than just stopping, and there are endless things to be done from a cross.
 

newbie

Well-Known Member
#14
The first thing I need to improve are the rebounds. I usually obtain the first one, but seldom the second one. I am wondering whether I need to provide a specific lead to initiate the rebound. Or is it a matter of timing of my own rebound?
If rebounds are the issue in your ochos cortados, then practice your rebounds first, not in the context of the ocho cortado, just rebounds. Ask your milonga leaders to include rebounds here and there.
 
#15
Had my tango course yesterday evening. In fact we learned the CW giro for the first time. As suggested here, I feel that using the start of the CW giro sequence provides a better basis for the ocho cortado than what we were taught initially. Didn’t have the opportunity to test the ocho cortado however.
 
#17
I feel that I have still many problems with the ocho cortado. I want first to describe how I view a typical ocho cortado: from the point of view of the follower:
- back with the right
- rebound forward with the left
- forward with the right and clockwise pivot
- sidestep to the left with the left
- rebound to the right with the right
- cross with the left.
The third move is side with the right, rebound as you clockwise pivot into the cross.
 
#18
The third move is side with the right, rebound as you clockwise pivot into the cross.
I missed "from the viewpoint of the follower" but I still don't think what you wrote is correct.

I lead the woman to step back on her; side to her left and rebound into the cross by rotating our bodies.
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
#19
I missed "from the viewpoint of the follower"
Hi Numawan, the idea behind the OC is a rigid interruption (cortado, cut). You have to lead her into a molinete, but as soon as she performs her front-8, you must immediately hinder her to add the following side step (molinete = front-8, side step, back-8, a.s.o.)
 

Gssh

Well-Known Member
#20
Hi Numawan, the idea behind the OC is a rigid interruption (cortado, cut). You have to lead her into a molinete, but as soon as she performs her front-8, you must immediately hinder her to add the following side step (molinete = front-8, side step, back-8, a.s.o.)
I always felt that the idea of the OC is that it is half of an ocho (cortado, diluted) - a full ocho is back-pivot-back, while a half ocho is side-pivot-back (the pivot is (depending on what special effect we are looking for) either before, on, or after the middle axis). Some of the more nuevo versions of the OC don't really use a rigid interruption for this change in direction, but an often quite exaggeratedly gentle and flowy sway.
 

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