"picking up" at salsa events

#41
Just my opinion.
well... is it your opinion that:

(a) you think my advice doesn't work

(b) you think it does work, but there are more effective ways to spend your time (which I'd really like to know)

(c) you think it does work, and that somehow pisses you off

----
(a) and (b) are pretty much the same thing... but I'd be interested to know what has worked for you in any case.
 
#42
I must say that I agree with some fundamental points Azure has made:

1) It is axiomatic, absolutely unquestionable, that a woman/girl/lady will be ATTRACTED to a man who displays self-confidence, whether that be on the dance-floor or anywhere else. The same applies for men - we are attracted to confident girls. It's biological - don't fight it.

2) It is also undeniably true that very good looking girls get approached by guys all the time. If a guy does not distinguish himself in any way from the 10 other guys who have approached this girl, his chance of her choosing him is 1/11.

3) Some of you might say "just be yourself, just be yourself!" The fact is, if being yourself means having no self-confidence, then by god I hope you believe in luck, because you'll need bucket loads of it when it comes to dating.

These are the facts of life.

Azure's strategy is probably more methodical than what any of us are used to, but it is a way of displaying confidence, and hence improving your chance at getting a "yes" from that luck lady.
 

Josh

Active Member
#43
amo_dile_que_no said:
For all of you ladies that think self-confidence is such an important trait in a guy, this is the kind of guy your going to be dealing with more often than not. Somehow, I think humility is a pretty important trait in the whole scheme of things. Just my opinion.
Are you suggesting that humility and self-confidence can't co-exist? Of course humility is important... ultimately more so to the success of the relationship. But humility can live very happily with self-confidence--confidence does not equate to arrogance, just as humility does not equate to weakness.
 
#44
Josh said:
Are you suggesting that humility and self-confidence can't co-exist? Of course humility is important... ultimately more so to the success of the relationship. But humility can live very happily with self-confidence--confidence does not equate to arrogance, just as humility does not equate to weakness.
Just read the two previous posts. Certainly they can co-exist. Sadly, they often do not. The trick for the unsuspecting is to be able to distinguish between the individuals in which they do both exist and the arrogant players that use what "works" to exploit others.
 
#45
ash88 said:
I must say that I agree with some fundamental points Azure has made:

1) It is axiomatic, absolutely unquestionable, that a woman/girl/lady will be ATTRACTED to a man who displays self-confidence, whether that be on the dance-floor or anywhere else. The same applies for men - we are attracted to confident girls. It's biological - don't fight it.
This has been studied, and studied, and studied again, there are tons of survey on this matter, and all qualify confidence as one of the most attractive traits in both women and men.


2) It is also undeniably true that very good looking girls get approached by guys all the time. If a guy does not distinguish himself in any way from the 10 other guys who have approached this girl, his chance of her choosing him is 1/11.
Natural selection. If you're a very good looking guy and not a retard meeting and "hooking up" with an attractive girl will be easy. Because at a biological level your genetic material is desired and the girl becomes attracted to you. If you're not physically attractive, you better be god damn interesting when you open your mouth and communicate superiority and power in some way, otherwise you might become a good friend but not a lover.

3) Some of you might say "just be yourself, just be yourself!" The fact is, if being yourself means having no self-confidence, then by god I hope you believe in luck, because you'll need bucket loads of it when it comes to dating.
Also if being yourself means being boring, uncool, poorly dressed, with a thousand of annoying tics and habits..please don't be yourself. Get yourself together, and fix all of those problems, and then you can be your new self.

It's important here to distinguish that "be yourself" which means don't pretend you're something your not starts from the premises that you're a pretty mulitaterally developed individual and you have a suite of attractive features and qualities about you. So just be yourself and let the quality of your person show. But if you're not, you can be yourself all you want and you won't get the life that you want. If you want more you need to improve your self.

Azure's strategy is probably more methodical than what any of us are used to, but it is a way of displaying confidence, and hence improving your chance at getting a "yes" from that luck lady.
Azure has this down. It's a touchy subject because this is not the reality we want. We want a fair reality, a reality where a "good" person is more deserving than a "bad" person, a reality where "good" is repayed with "good", and "bad" with "bad". A reality where "good" people will without exception be happy.

But this is not the reality. In reality in every case whoever is perceived "cool"
will get many more girls than who is "humble".


Are you suggesting that humility and self-confidence can't co-exist? Of course humility is important... ultimately more so to the success of the relationship. But humility can live very happily with self-confidence--confidence does not equate to arrogance, just as humility does not equate to weakness.
Humility and self-confidence are two different things, and they can live together.

I don't see humility as a quality, and so much the less an attractive one. Humility is simply the lack of bragging/arrogance which is a negative trait you shouldn't have anyway. So humility is really nothing.

My take is amo_dile_que_no is talking about something completely different when mentioning humility. I think he doesn't like men who are aggressively pursuing girls, and qualifies them as "non-humble".

There's alot of talk about self-confident men/women who don't fall for this or that...The truth is nobody is completely confident. Confidence is built on external input, and works on areas. For example somebody who dated 500 drop dead gorgeous women will always be confident with women, where as a guy who only dated 3 average looking women in his last 5 years will not be confident with women in general, so much the less with very attractive ones. And his confidence will get even lower if the first guy enters the picture and starts talking to his girlfriend (and will lose composure in some way, either gets nervous, his voice changes, he gets upset, jealous).

But wait. This guy is a top programmer at a very important company. In that area, he will be much more confident than this guy who dated a lot of women. In essence confidence is a direct measurement of skill. And if one is not confident because of one's physical traits, one needs to grow up, think it through and get over it.

Point is regardless of a person, there's always something that will be able to shatter their confidence.
 
#46
Confindence is FINE! No one is disputing that. What offended me was the phrase "justify herself". Perhaps this was an inaccurate choice of words for the actualy sentiment Azure was trying to convey. That could be. BUt his attitude sort of came off as arrogance, not confidence. One can be confident and humble. One cannot be arrogant and humble. Also, there is no person on earth who needs to justify him or herself to another human being. To me, saying someone should justify themselves to you is saying that they need to give a reason for their existence or their worthiness. I'm against this. Because everyone is. Perhaps I've never had to "date" or work at "hooking up" because I've seen the worth and value in everyone, whether they see it themselves or not? I like to connect with the person, not the flurry of reasons they advertise.

Is Azure trying to say that it's a successful strategy to encourage a position where women are trying to put on their best face for you? To win you? This kind of competition works, for sure, and it's normal and common. No problem. This is also probably the way it works if you're looking to "hook up". I can't say it's frequently a good strategy if you're trying to fall in love and have a lasting, mutually respectful and unconditional relationship. Then again, I'm probably hopelessly naive and my lack of dating experience is showing once again.

Amo_dile was commenting not on Azure's confidence, of which he obviously has a healthy dose, but the apparent abundance of arrogance. Are we misreading a joking tone? Perhaps Azure was trying to be over the top. Hard to read tone when it's just conveyed in written words.
 
#47
thespina13 said:
Confindence is FINE! No one is disputing that. What offended me was the phrase "justify herself". Perhaps this was an inaccurate choice of words for the actualy sentiment Azure was trying to convey. That could be. BUt his attitude sort of came off as arrogance, not confidence. One can be confident and humble. One cannot be arrogant and humble. Also, there is no person on earth who needs to justify him or herself to another human being. To me, saying someone should justify themselves to you is saying that they need to give a reason for their existence or their worthiness. I'm against this. Because everyone is. Perhaps I've never had to "date" or work at "hooking up" because I've seen the worth and value in everyone, whether they see it themselves or not? I like to connect with the person, not the flurry of reasons they advertise.

Is Azure trying to say that it's a successful strategy to encourage a position where women are trying to put on their best face for you? To win you? This kind of competition works, for sure, and it's normal and common. No problem. This is also probably the way it works if you're looking to "hook up". I can't say it's frequently a good strategy if you're trying to fall in love and have a lasting, mutually respectful and unconditional relationship. Then again, I'm probably hopelessly naive and my lack of dating experience is showing once again.

Amo_dile was commenting not on Azure's confidence, of which he obviously has a healthy dose, but the apparent abundance of arrogance. Are we misreading a joking tone? Perhaps Azure was trying to be over the top. Hard to read tone when it's just conveyed in written words.
Yeah, that "justify" thing is most likely an error. I think what he means is that he wants to set up a dynamic where girls are trying to impress him and show him they fit his criteria for choosing a partener and not the otherway around.

I think Azure is good people, I'm sure he seemed a little over the top because he was rather blunt when challenging the generally accepted means of getting somebody to like you.
 
#48
ash88 said:
Azure's strategy is probably more methodical than what any of us are used to, but it is a way of displaying confidence, and hence improving your chance at getting a "yes" from that luck lady.
But it's not just 'displaying confidence' that's important, cause the real character will show by time. So maybe it's to get a first "yes", but you better have more to offer.
 
#49
What offended me was the phrase "justify herself". Perhaps this was an inaccurate choice of words for the actualy sentiment Azure was trying to convey
Most guys will spend their time trying to "talk girls into going out with them." They focus on lines, gimmicks, buying her drinks, etc; but they have already made up their minds she is worth pursuing. They are trying to impress the girl... but the interaction is one of where she is evaluating whether the guy is good enough for her. Generally, I think you want to avoid that conversation altogether; change things over to where she is explaining why she is good enough for you. To get to that state, I find it most effective to focus on "selling myself" to everyone else (her friends are going to be far more effective at convincing her that you can ever be.)

I think Azure is good people
So many judgemental people on this board! Why can't we all just accept each other for what who we are? :D
 
#50
AzureDreamer said:
Most guys will spend their time trying to "talk girls into going out with them." They focus on lines, gimmicks, buying her drinks, etc; but they have already made up their minds she is worth pursuing. They are trying to impress the girl... but the interaction is one of where she is evaluating whether the guy is good enough for her. Generally, I think you want to avoid that conversation altogether; change things over to where she is explaining why she is good enough for you. To get to that state, I find it most effective to focus on "selling myself" to everyone else (her friends are going to be far more effective at convincing her that you can ever be.):D
Dead on....methinks that my man Azure does not have a problem getting dates.
 
#51
eh.. whats all da fuss about? lol.. read randomly and saw alot of analyses.. some pretty cool ones too.. is all that just about asking a lady for her number??

well.. to each lady her approach.. figure it out.. thats what thinking is for .. dont rush.. AND persistence (so long as its not a dead end) it does pay.. my 2 cents (should i have kept them?) haha
 
#52
By the way... I'm not judgemental. I was just sticking up for my girlz in what I saw was an inappropriate way of regarding them. I have a duty to try and better our situation in the world. I understand Azure's stance right now though, and understand he was trying to illustrated that one may get more success through shifting the dynamic from begging to receiving. This is one strategy and I'm sure it works well. I'm glad it was clarified.
 
#53
AzureDreamer said:
I would always ask for a phone number at the first possible opportunity. (or an e-mail address, a lot of girls are more open to giving you that.)

I think there is a real numbers game though. I figure less than 25% of the girls I get numbers from will I actually go out on a real date with. Mostly I am just going to set up a time to talk to them in a less formal setting. (A club is the worst possible place to try to "chat up" a girl!)

---------------
My advice on "picking girls up in a salsa club":


(a) Your main advantage as a dancer is ease of introductions. You can easily meet 20 different girls in a night. (Talking is a lot harder, and I'm personally there to dance... so play to your strengths / interests.)

(b) Don't fixate on one girl, and especially don't try to monopolize her time. Talk to her, have a dance, get her number, dance with her friends. Move on.

(c) Never hesitate. You see someone you like, you ask her to dance immediately. Get her number immediately. Don't hang around too long afterwards. Leave the club well before closing.

(d) You got a handful of phone numbers from girls you spent 5 minutes talking too, and danced with twice. You know nothing about them... so give them a call, and if that goes well... arrange to meet for coffee, a morning jog around the park, or a quick drink after work one night (and make a point of not staying too late.) This is not a date, its just groundwork for a date.

(e) You go back to the same club... there are 5 girls there you've met now socially outside of that club... asking any of them first would annoy the others, so you'd better spend the first 4 dances of the evening with the oldest lady present (if you dance with a 70 yr old, they know you are going to be gentle with them), the heaviest girl present (you aren't judgemental), a girl who just started in the beginner class that night (again, same thing, but she can't be super attractive either), and then the best dancer present (best if she's in a relationship, and who everone else is too intimidated to ask).

(f) In every group of girls, there will be one designated with maintaining the "moral standards" of the group, (invariably the fat, ugly one)... you need to get her to like you. So make some effort, win her over to your side.

ok... you got the club "primed", you have kind of a mini-bidding war going on, you've done what you can to disarm obstacles... and you are now ready to start asking out the girls for real dates, or (if you've already met them a couple times socially) just take them home from the club. If it doesn't work out, keep moving on. Don't waste time pursuing the wrong girls, but don't be too judgemental up front either.
Absolutly BRILLIANT!

Can't actually remember ever seeing this aproach stated in such a methodical way! Obviously this was written by a guy, and was ment to be better understood by guys...

Girls may say they'd like that good should be rewarded (and even actually mean it), but truth is that more often than not, the bastards are the ones that win this game. And although this method can be used by anyone, I'd say that 8 out of every 10 of the "bastards" know this set of rules... The other two are either, rick, drop dead gorgeous, or just have a "magnetic field" that attract women.

Somehow, most of the most humble, well spoken guys, who would treat a lady like a Lady, seem to hardly never get a girlfriend... They tend to end in the "friend zone", like they were not considered... In the meantime, girls will date 4 different bad guys, of whom they will complaint afterwards to the forementioned humble ones... Stange? I don't think so but it doesn't seem to reward the vision of a fair world, does it?

Would love to hear asimilar tactic, but stated from the girls point of view this time... After all girls are as good/bad/calculating as us... (Probably more so on the calculating part, since they have to get us to make the moves, think it was our idea, and yet never be aware it wasn't... ;) )
 
#54
Houdinni said:
Girls may say they'd like that good should be rewarded (and even actually mean it), but truth is that more often than not, the bastards are the ones that win this game. And although this method can be used by anyone, I'd say that 8 out of every 10 of the "bastards" know this set of rules... The other two are either, rick, drop dead gorgeous, or just have a "magnetic field" that attract women.

Somehow, most of the most humble, well spoken guys, who would treat a lady like a Lady, seem to hardly never get a girlfriend... They tend to end in the "friend zone", like they were not considered... In the meantime, girls will date 4 different bad guys, of whom they will complaint afterwards to the forementioned humble ones... Stange? I don't think so but it doesn't seem to reward the vision of a fair world, does it?
I think you are mistaken. Bastards do not operate these complicated set of "rules". It's really much more simple than that, they don't *care* either way.

When a woman who operates the "rules" and tries little tests and manipulation on a bastard they fail and she thinks he's hard to get or has high standards. Not because he's smart, or is operating some grand plan! LOL. Eventually she falls in love thinking he is in love with her too (because he said so and is a good liar - he has the practice) and only later she learns the truth.

A man who has self-respect and respect for women, who cares but cannot be manipulated easily, who does not play games himself but understands how things work, can flirt and tease and be fun and make her laugh.. this is the guy she wanted but confused with the bastard.

Have you ever noticed how really easy it is to make someone fall in love with you who you do not love?
 
#55
thoughts...

This is an interesting topic. I (female) started salsa dancing about a year ago, and am totally addicted. That said, I always thought that a potential bonus might be that I'd meet some men in the process, and while I have made some wonderful friends, both male and female, I too have noticed that at the dance socials in particular (held at various dance studios in Manhattan), there is this unspoken rule that you don't "hit on" anybody, and by that I mean even talking someone up on the side of the dance floor, offering to get them a drink, etc. It just doesn't seem to be done.

However, I do think in rare instances it is possible to meet people that you might be interested in romantically. As someone else here said, there's the option for a group of people going to get something to eat after the dance. (I understand this is common, although I myself have never stayed for the end of a dance.) I also noticed that after I dance with a guy, he simply says "thank you", and goes on to dance with someone else. Repeat dances also seem to be rare for whatever reason. People seem to go from one dance partner to another. But I see no reason why after a dance, a couple couldn't walk off to the side of the floor together for some real conversation, but perhaps that would look too "pick-up'y", and out of place in such an environment. I imagine the rules are different at nightclubs that have salsa dancing vs. dance socials held at dance studios.

I now have a circle of salsa friends that I mainly met through dance class. Some of them have parties at their homes, and I too one had a salsa party at my place. I think this is where you're more likely to express interest in/receive interest from others that goes beyond just dancing together.
 
#56
Houdinni said:
Absolutly BRILLIANT!

Can't actually remember ever seeing this aproach stated in such a methodical way! Obviously this was written by a guy, and was ment to be better understood by guys...

Girls may say they'd like that good should be rewarded (and even actually mean it), but truth is that more often than not, the bastards are the ones that win this game. And although this method can be used by anyone, I'd say that 8 out of every 10 of the "bastards" know this set of rules... The other two are either, rick, drop dead gorgeous, or just have a "magnetic field" that attract women.
This is not set of rules the "bastards" apply consciously. This is a set of rules
that was made by reverse-engineering the "bastards" bahaviour so that good guys (who actually care and are not bastards) can correct their wussbag behaviour and act in a powerful attractive way.

Somehow, most of the most humble, well spoken guys, who would treat a lady like a Lady, seem to hardly never get a girlfriend... They tend to end in the "friend zone", like they were not considered... In the meantime, girls will date 4 different bad guys, of whom they will complaint afterwards to the forementioned humble ones... Stange? I don't think so but it doesn't seem to reward the vision of a fair world, does it?
True. Because most of these guys have a very idealistic view of relationships, and want a woman so bad they would do anything to keep her or keep her happy including in most cases compromising their own integrity. There is also the pedestal thing, and of course the lack of confidence when it comes to women which translates into the aforementioned behaviour. This is not a problem for the bad guys because they don't care eitherway, and the moment something is not the way they want it to be, they are out of the picture. Most guys...give up, and compromise. But it's a compromise come from need not from genuine understanding.

Would love to hear asimilar tactic, but stated from the girls point of view this time... After all girls are as good/bad/calculating as us... (Probably more so on the calculating part, since they have to get us to make the moves, think it was our idea, and yet never be aware it wasn't... ;) )
Women are much better than men at "Games" and manipulation in the sense of eliciting responses (which come to think of it is manipulation PERIOD). A tear here and there, a pout, etc etc etc. to make you give in. But I'm not sure it's about being calculated. I think they're just natural at doing it somehow.

Similar tactic haha, I'm sure they have tons. Read "The Rules" if you haven't done so already and as you read you'll have quite a few epiphanies accompanied of course by flashbacks.

What's interesting is that if you ask a girl what she looks for in a man she'll list you a zillion admirable qualities. But their next boyfriend(s) will not even be close to the type of man they describe. In that sense, getting advice on dating from women is worse than just doing whatever random things come in your mind. The best dating advice comes from guys/girls who consistently get the dates they want.
 
#57
azzey said:
Have you ever noticed how really easy it is to make someone fall in love with you who you do not love?
So true...!

And Englezul is right... "Bastards" (I really sould find the right english word for what I was trying to express here) or players have the upper hand... Practice makes perfect...

As in believing in someone who brags too much, I always though it has more noise than action behind the words, but still this topic has kept me laughing like hell... And all in all it trully isn't a bad aproach...

Englezul said:
What's interesting is that if you ask a girl what she looks for in a man she'll list you a zillion admirable qualities. But their next boyfriend(s) will not even be close to the type of man they describe. In that sense, getting advice on dating from women is worse than just doing whatever random things come in your mind. The best dating advice comes from guys/girls who consistently get the dates they want.
Also true. If one were to believe the descriptions given by women, about everyone with a sense o humour would be be the cat's pijamas... But somehow reality seems not to fit the picture they paint... :)
 
#58
Houdinni said:
Azzey said:
Have you ever noticed how really easy it is to make someone fall in love with you who you do not love?
So true...!
By that I meant *accidentally* making someone fall in love with you by ignoring them, because it is *not* something you should do. Otherwise karma will get you in the end.
 
#60
AzureDreamer said:
I would always ask for a phone number at the first possible opportunity. (or an e-mail address, a lot of girls are more open to giving you that.)

I think there is a real numbers game though. I figure less than 25% of the girls I get numbers from will I actually go out on a real date with. Mostly I am just going to set up a time to talk to them in a less formal setting. (A club is the worst possible place to try to "chat up" a girl!)

---------------
My advice on "picking girls up in a salsa club":

(a - f)
Some excellent pieces of advice. I'm going to print out, frame and hang up on the wall!
 

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