Robo-ochos

#1
As soon as I lead a single back ocho, my followers (beginners like me) are continuing with at least 2 more. To stop them, I simply stop moving and completely release my embrace. The only other way to stop them would be to use brute force.

Going through older threads on this forum, it seems that robo-ochos are a pretty common occurrence. Is there an explanation for that? My partners understand the concept of following and usually do follow, except in this instance.
 

UKDancer

Well-Known Member
#7
Yes it is common. But why robo-ochos specifically? Why do I get proper following for other steps?
Someone would have to observe you dancing to give a proper reply, but typically, a follower who does ochos on auto-pivot has committed herself to the body twist that will create the pivot too early, and then can do nothing else but pivot and step again. If you start introducing rotation in the opposite direction at just the right time, and do it with conviction, the follower will find herself dancing a back boleo, instead - and if they are the sort to create boleo-like movements, unled, as a form of adornment, they might be more surprised than you ...

As someone raised the 'big red button' thread, again, let me offer a suggestion to end auto-giros. Given that the basic pattern of a giro is rotational, but every other step for the follower is to the side, if the leader accompanies either of those side steps with a side step of his own (in the same direction, obviously), the rotational shape of the follower's movement is broken, and you can regain the initiative. It's a simple technique which will nearly always work, and doesn't feel awkward for wither dancer.
 
#8
I was also wondering whether my partners are using their legs to provide rotational momentum, instead of their hips. I suspect that would make the rotation stronger and harder to control for them.
 

newbie

Well-Known Member
#9
Yes it is common. But why robo-ochos specifically? Why do I get proper following for other steps?
Maybe one beginner lady will post here and explain.
Until then, here's an assumption of mine: they do what they've seen at the class, and as the teacher usually shows a series of ochos, the beginner follower actually thinks that back ochos come by the dozen.
 

twnkltoz

Well-Known Member
#10
Maybe one beginner lady will post here and explain.
Until then, here's an assumption of mine: they do what they've seen at the class, and as the teacher usually shows a series of ochos, the beginner follower actually thinks that back ochos come by the dozen.
I think this is part of it. I think they get into it and just go because it's fun and they're not really listening. It's probably easier to get away with not following in this step more than some others.
 

JoeB

Active Member
#11
So we need to develop a no-more-ocho training collar? Probably easier to have it on a button that try to detect excess ochos automatically.
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
#12
Yes it is common. But why robo-ochos specifically? Why do I get proper following for other steps?
I think I posted this in another thread, but here goes. IMO, back ochos are far and away the most difficult of the fundamental steps for the follower to learn. I believe that once they achieve basic competency, they get excited and stop paying attention to the lead.

I think of it as a phase that many followers go through. Eventually, it will pass, and all will be well.
 

Angel HI

Well-Known Member
#16
MHO.....
So-called Robo-Ochos are caused by 2 main/major errors (and a plethora of other minor ones).
1 - (lead) - over-leading: the man tries to turn the lady to create figure 8s rather than establishing a position with the embrace, and allowing the ocho to happen as a natural occurence within that position. Of course, this is assuming that the intent is not a run-away sequence of ochos.
2 - (follow) - over-rotating: not understanding what an ocho is. Yes, the word is 8; No, the move does not draw an 8 on the floor. If the lady understood the ocho to be only a 'swivel' which returns her to a center with her partner and the embrace, she would not over-rotate into more than the intended number of swivels/ochos. She would, for all practical purposes stop when she reached the point of facing her partner. Of course, this places a responsibility on the lead to 'lead' properly the intent of continuing into another ocho or differing step. (funny, that leading by following, by timing, and by how you do it rather than what you do is currently the topic of another thread). :)
 
#18
Yes indeed. I am certainly far from good, but I really don't have the impression that my leads are the issue here. One example: I led my partner to do a back ocho to my left. She did the back ocho. But well before I had completed my side step and regained my balance, she had already continued with a back ocho to the right. No way I could have led that by accident.
 
#20
At a year and a fraction, I'm not much ahead of you, but had a similar issue and have had some success fixing it.

One helpful thing newbie said was "I tend to keep them busy enough, this way they have no opportunity to get wild." http://www.dance-forums.com/threads/big-red-stop-button.46180/#post-1073248 A variant on this is something my instructor says, "Keep the lady guessing." As a newb I tended to be very predictable. I found that putting in some stops, rock steps, stepping forward then back, etc., keeps the ladies guessing and they "listen harder" and are less likely to run wild.

Another good bit of advice I got was to start the lead sooner. Imagine you are just walking. Once you are walking steadily, leading on beat 3.5 to step on beat 4, leading on beat 4.5 to step on beat 5, etc. can work. It takes more time to reverse direction, so to lead that you might need to start the stopping lead on beat 1.2 to stop on beat 2, and start the reverse direction lead on beat 2.2 to step in the opposite direction on beat 3. For something with lots of momentum, like a fast molinette, you might need to start slowing on beat 1.5 to be stopped by beat 3.

I have seen that runaway robo-ocho ladies tend to be less so in close embrace.

I do this very rarely, but with one lady I know well or a beginner sometimes I'll say something like "Wait for me!"

Numawan said:
... I really don't have the impression that my leads are the issue here. One example: ... she had already continued with a back ocho to the right. No way I could have led that by accident.
 

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