Snobbery on the scene

#21
Or just read enough discussion boards and the wonderful opinions on them. Snobbery and elitism will only drive people away, so why do people persist with those attitudes?
 

Spitfire

Well-Known Member
#22
swinginstyle said:
Well, I know all about elitism and snobbery. Sadly enough, it seems to only appear in the lindy scene. Westies seem like to everything, though they may not dance at higher tempos. ECS'ers love their neo-swing and have difficulty dancing to slower tempos. Lindy hoppers had their exclusive cliques (rarely ever mingling), their attitude toward "proper" swing music, and frequently badmouthed westies and ECS'ers. Frankly, I don't gave a care about such close-minded lindy hoppers. I'll take the openminded swing dancers, whatever they may dance to, any time.
Amen to that!

For all their badmouthing about ECS and WCS, ECS is what they teach at their classes just prior to the dances; at least that's what is done here. True, they may be using it as a means to progress to Lindy, but as long as they teach it they are still promoting it, right?

These attitudes could be why Lindy has lost momentum here; WCS on the other hand is just the opposite.
 

huey

New Member
#23
I went on a combined Lindy Hop and 'Jive' dance holiday recently. We divided basically into two groups, specialising in either Lindy Hop or Jive. Separate classes and dances. I enjoyed being in the Lindy group. But I found that perhaps I had the best fun just dancing in nightclubs when both groups went together and danced to general pop music.

I do believe Lindy is much harder than other styles such as jive. Perhaps the fact that people have to spend a lot of time on their relatively tough Lindy dancing makes them think they are 'better' than others.
 
#24
huey said:
I went on a combined Lindy Hop and 'Jive' dance holiday recently. ...
That would be interesting. Considering for me both dances are performed to about the same speed (lindy slightly slower perhaps?) but the characters of each dance are totally different. I have a lot of difficulty converting from one to the other because jive is more vertical and lindy is lower to the ground and circular. Granted, I've taken a small number of jive lessons (2) compared to lindy (12 weeks).

That said, I play "Wake Me Up Before You Go Go" a lot. It's one of my favorite swing pieces that most youngsters can relate to. You can also dance jive to it, and lindy is not impossible. I get "those faces" from the pure lindy folks about it at times, but still...
 
#25
pygmalion said:
You may be cantankerous, jon, but you try to be fair and accurate. You're a good guy to have around, IMHO. (And no, complimenting people is NOT in the moderator job description. I only say it if I mean it. 8) )

That said, the reason I don't do lindy hop today is because of snobbery in the scene. The teachers I hooked up with are very nice. But OMG! The attitudes of some lindy hoppers (mostly young and arrogant ones) is really distasteful to me.

I've spent much of my career fighting bigotry in one organization or another. To find it in the dance world turns my stomach. And I've found it in the lindy world. Now, the West Coast Swing people here are cool, totally laid back, and very welcoming (and older. I wonder if that's a coincidence. :? ) I haven't done a bop dance yet, but I'll check in with a report when I do. The lindy folks, some of them, made me want to either punch somebody in the nose or launch into a long and boring diatribe about the evils of prejudice. :shock: So I figured it was better for me to remove myself from that particular scene.
pygmailon you go girl,your my kinda gal-i always hated the snobbery in the music world(playing in and out of bands for 30 years-im 47,anyway 7 years ago i got into the dance world-and sorry to say i see a lot of the same crap- i see snobbery in hustle- salsa and west coast here in philly, new jersey and new york-with teachers and dancers, but also on the other side of the coin a lot of really nice folk in all these dances :p ,however i does effect people who are not as talented in dance-or people who just want to have fun,so they turn people away-trust me i know a lot of dancers up and down the east coast and we (talk) my info is straight up correct, and i have the benifit of doing all three dances i just mention really good ,in addition to ballroom-and it turns my stomach to see how nasty and clickess some are-and they hurt the dance world from growing in leaps and bounds :(
 
#26
Spitfire said:
For all their badmouthing about ECS and WCS, ECS is what they teach at their classes just prior to the dances; at least that's what is done here. True, they may be using it as a means to progress to Lindy, but as long as they teach it they are still promoting it, right?

These attitudes could be why Lindy has lost momentum here; WCS on the other hand is just the opposite.
Nearly everyone that I know learned ECS before lindy, yet a lot of people are perfectly willing to badmouth ECS. I think this is ridiculous. I am thankful for what I have learned and who I learned it from. I may not enjoy ECS that much nowadays, but it has it's place in the dance. To me, when lindy starts getting faster, the dance starts looking like ECS. Albeit, the technique, connection, musicality is much better, along with the dance looking more dynamic.
 
#27
Part of the reason (I guess) in many cases of elitism or snobbishness is the attitude of the instructors or their students in thinking their training and technique is "better" than "your" instructors/instruction. So they get accustomed to dancing with their fellow students from their studios, and the cliquishness begins.
 

Spitfire

Well-Known Member
#28
I believe that people who feel that they have to badmouth other dances and dancers are those who basically feel insecure and uncomfortable with themselves.

If I'm someone who concentrates on one specific dance, WCS, Lindy, Salsa, ect. and am enjoying myself why should I care what the dance world "outside the box" does? :?
 

Sagitta

Well-Known Member
#29
Right on Spitfire. And along those lines how would you like to be treated coming to a stange place, and not getting any dances, and those that you get being treated like a stinky rag!?!! I always make a point of welcoming a stranger or two at my regular dance places with a dance. Here the criteria is not how cute/hot they look, or whether they can dance my style, or if they have leant to dance yet, but only that they must be showing a little interest in wanting to dance. :) And these little adventures always turn out to be rather enjoyable. I look forward to them. :D
 

Spitfire

Well-Known Member
#30
Sagitta said:
Right on Spitfire. And along those lines how would you like to be treated coming to a stange place, and not getting any dances, and those that you get being treated like a stinky rag!?!! I always make a point of welcoming a stranger or two at my regular dance places with a dance. Here the criteria is not how cute/hot they look, or whether they can dance my style, or if they have leant to dance yet, but only that they must be showing a little interest in wanting to dance. :) And these little adventures always turn out to be rather enjoyable. I look forward to them. :D
Yep, I've often mentioned to people that our dance world is unique in it's social atmosphere in that attractiveness does not in itself sell one's self; not in the long run anyway. This is done either by one's ability to dance or willingness to learn. :) (Except maybe for those more snobish environments)

The WCS club here used to be notorious for snobishness, but many of those folks have left. There still is some among the remaining "old guard", but all in all it's much friendlier now. 8)
 
#31
Good point. I know I always like to show up at a strange place of dancing, watching other people, and then going for it myself. Hopefully my dancing will turn a couple of people's heads to say, "hey, he ain't that bad."

Certainly I like breaking down preconceptions, but I will admit it takes quite a lot of courage to do that. Showing up for a Tito Nieves concert (before he really really hit it big) in Cleveland by myself was certainly an interesting experience.
 
#32
pygmalion said:
That said, the reason I don't do lindy hop today is because of snobbery in the scene. The teachers I hooked up with are very nice. But OMG! The attitudes of some lindy hoppers (mostly young and arrogant ones) is really distasteful to me.

The lindy folks, some of them, made me want to either punch somebody in the nose or launch into a long and boring diatribe about the evils of prejudice. :shock: So I figured it was better for me to remove myself from that particular scene.
I bet I know who you are talking about, muahahahahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
 

Spitfire

Well-Known Member
#34
There is going to be snobbishness in every dance scene somewhere.

Where I see it the least myself is in the ballroom studios.
 
#35
I definitely have seen snobbishness in West Coast Swing dancers, but it seems to come from the younger dancers (mid 30's to mid 50's) :wink: , from a certain geographical area (in my area, Orange county), and from my observation, mostly dancers who compete, especially in Jack and Jills. Don't get me wrong, they truly are wonderful dancers. I don't know if there should be all that attitude, though :p :?: Otherwise, the West Coast Swing dancers I've met are wonderful and gracious people :D
 
#36
Sasashay said:
I definitely have seen snobbishness in West Coast Swing dancers, but it seems to come from the younger dancers (mid 30's to mid 50's) :wink: , from a certain geographical area (in my area, Orange county)
Judging by what's posted (and posted, and posted, and posted yet again) on rec.arts.dance, the LA WCS dancers are suffering the effects of a deeply stupid, lengthy war between two of their dance clubs, and their dance "community" has become factionalized. Some people down there seem to take this stuff way too seriously.
 
#38
As middle aged Lindy Hoppers, I won't try to defend the attitudes of some of my bretheren (and sisteren?). I do think that there is an "acceptance" threshold that one must pass to become a part of the scene, and that there are various ways past this threshold. But they all involve active participation in the scene. For our part, I feel that locally we are generally seen as "part of the scene" - we dance, teach, compete and sponser/put on events. Nationally we feel accepted, although not "part of the scene". And nationally we are fairly active participants in workshops and events, we compete
(Geezers Frozen in Time & Space - http://www.camphollywood.net/images/2003/sunday/03masters/pages/DSCF1919.htm ) and I DJ. But to really be "part of the scene" requires that you be 20-something with all the wierdness that characterizes a lot of 20-something interactions and relationships. And you can keep those. So in that regard, there are "thresholds of engagement" that anyone can at least partially pass.

So although there are barriers and annoying personallities, when all is said it is Just Dance. I don't really see a large component of attitude in the national Lindy scene beyond what one expects from dancers generally younger than one's own daughter!
 
#39
Ok, I guess I have just a weird opinion about the whole thing. I dance Lindy, WCS, ECS, salsa, and ballroom (isn't it nice to be in college and have all of that energy). I guess what contributes a little bit to there not being so much snobbery in the scene i dance in is that one of the main teachers in the area teaches Lindy, WCS, ECS, and salsa (she started out as a WCS dancer). Since I learned all those things from her, and there are so many of her students around, a lot of people do a lot of different dances. Now I'm not going to say there's no snobbery in the lindy scene (there might actually more among people in the lindy scene than towards the outside :oops: ), but I don't think everyone in the lindy scene is a snob. Just my two cents...
 

Sagitta

Well-Known Member
#40
setsuna713 said:
Ok, I guess I have just a weird opinion about the whole thing. I dance Lindy, WCS, ECS, salsa, and ballroom (isn't it nice to be in college and have all of that energy). I guess what contributes a little bit to there not being so much snobbery in the scene i dance in is that one of the main teachers in the area teaches Lindy, WCS, ECS, and salsa (she started out as a WCS dancer). Since I learned all those things from her, and there are so many of her students around, a lot of people do a lot of different dances. Now I'm not going to say there's no snobbery in the lindy scene (there might actually more among people in the lindy scene than towards the outside :oops: ), but I don't think everyone in the lindy scene is a snob. Just my two cents...
Ditto!! Not painting everyone with the same black brush, ever!!
 

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