thing is, there's a difference between the musicality that one can feel and the musicality that one can demonstrate and express through one's body. musicality as part of one's sensation of dancing and moving the body should of course be part of learning dance, from the first step, IMO.
but that inner sense of musicality as it is able to be demonstrated is going to be sloppy without control, without mastery of something at some level. this is just completely normal, just as it's normal to increase in a capacity for nuance as one's mastery and control (and therefore ease...) increases.
i don't think it's really an arguable thing? it's just the way it works... we demonstrate what we're able to do with our bodies, it's very visible. the more mastery, the more ease, the more control, the more nuance, the more we can express the musicality that we've been cultivating from within.
I certainly agree about there being a difference between musicality that one can feel and the musicality that one can demonstrate. My thought was stemming around the demonstration. I agree about control. And I guess I don't know enough about different dance styles, myself, to say, yet, that I agree with everything in the last two paragraphs, but I understand, I like, your thought.
This concept of constraints as it relates to various dance forms is interesting. I wish I knew more about WCS and AT technique to be able to articulate the differences in musicality I see (and where I have difficulty seeing musicality) in some of the videos you've included of ballroom, WCS and AT. I think this thought is going to have to percolate for a couple of years until I have more experiences to draw upon (even within the one style I currently study) before I can explore further.
Respectfully, there is a WORLD of difference between ChaChaCha and Waltz! How anyone could confuse the two is beyond my comprehension. If you'd said "foxtrot and waltz", I'd have bought your assertion because those two can have a bit of crossover that makes it difficult...
HOWEVER! If you actually watch the dances, it's evident based on the footwork that a ChaChaCha is different from a Rumba is different from a Jive is different from a Paso Doble etc etc etc. EVEN if you took away the music, it would be evident. What makes each dance unique - aside from the music each are danced to - is the actual steps and characterization.
It seems to me - based on your posts - that your experience with ballroom is incredibly limited.
And here is the heart of this thread. Go off and do as you choose... but forcing your views and choices on others by telling them are "wrong" when they merely don't fit "Your" interpretation of right and wrong is obviously not getting you anywhere.
I don't see it as sanitized or castrated. I feel that the ballroom dances I do have had a bit of time to evolve their own sabor. I've done vintage waltz. I prefer ballroom waltz and freely accept any constraints as a reasonable exchange.
Even though I don't like to watch "ballroom" dance anymore (I once did, but found other dance forms to fit my temperment better), it's pretty obvious that rhythm is not the only thing that differs from dance to dance. As confirmation of that, all you have to do is listen to the judges on SYTYCD when they have a "ballroom" dance. The judges are all over things such as how steps are taken, top line, rise and fall, etc.
And, they expect different things for different dances!
(When they comment on Argentine Tango and some other dances ("swing" included) I think they show their lack of knowledge.)
If we are not talented enough or sufficiently trained and experienced to be able to move confidently and efficiently while also interpreting and reflecting all the nuances of melody and phrasing (and even lyrics) we hear, then perhaps we are "rhythming." Any other suggestions?
Some of us will never reach a level that reflects much more than rhythm and tempo. It is true we might move very well with only a rhythm track coming through the speakers or a metronome clicking in our ears. (Perhaps beginners could benefit from this if they find the melody, harmony, vocal etc. is hiding the rhythm.) However, (as I think someone has already pointed out) dancing without the whole compliment of what we usually call "music" would be a rather hollow and joyless activity. But we don't HAVE to be able to move to all the aspects of the music to have a full and enjoyable experience on the dance floor.
Because they all have their merit as completely separate and beautiful dances in their own right. As much as I love AT, and don't care for BR tango, and admit that BR had its roots in AT...it's now its own dance, which should be judged on its own merit.
If you always think of them as "sanitized, castrated" versions of the originals, you can't see the beauty in them that's there. Better, I think, to accept them on their own terms...as dances which began somewhere, but have morphed into something wholly different. And beautiful.
Ahhhh!!!! Ghosts of AT threads past!!! Noooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!
Heh. This is/can be a huge can of worms in the AT community. Are the new forms still AT, or have they (d)evolved into something completely different (worse)? What is AT? How far back do you have to go, style-wise, to consider things genuine AT? Take it back far enough, and the roots (AFAIK) can be traced in part to African slave dancers. Where is the line drawn?
Dance changes, evolves, mutates - isn't that the very beauty of improvisational dance?
History is history, its interesting to know what a particular dance is like - but does it affect the way we dance?
Incidentally Peaches, a few months back I did some social ballroom and found it fantasitically easier after my experience with AT. I just danced. I could use the AT lead and technique to maneouvre my partner round floor much more fluently than the formal ballroom stuff I'd learned.
Doing Ballroom with an AT lead and mindset was actually very pleasant. . . . . . anyone have a similar experience? Once you get rid of the formal Ballroom styling and concentrating on that the Waltz is a really nice dance.
I would say the 3 ballroom versions look far more like each other than they do the originals. The ballroom Cha Cha Cha is way closer to the ballroom tango in style than it is the original Cha Cha Cha - though of course its a different rhythm.