The rules of a practica

Purr

Well-Known Member
I am new to taking argentine tango lessons. At a party last Saturday, I danced argentine tango with a teacher, and it went pretty well. I love the forward and backward ochos. A lead saw me dancing with the teacher, and asked me to dance the next tango. I told him ahead of time I was new, and didn't know a lot. The dance went ok, not great. I wasn't sure where he was going sometimes, as his lead was a little nebulous. It's all good. Live and learn.
 

Mladenac

Well-Known Member
I wasn't sure where he was going sometimes, as his lead was a little nebulous.
Don't analyze just follow what you feel and if he complains just say that you were following what you had felt.
And don't think later what you need to follow but what what happening in leading that make you do that.
Be focused on movement not element.
 
I think all of us went through these moments where we danced with a teacher and felt great, especially if he/she was our teacher, and then danced with a "civilian" (hahaha) and had no idea what went wrong..!
The teacher usually compensates for our mistakes which makes us feel like a million dollars..!!! But then the other person is probably at that level to be able to do that...So I think, because I have been through that, it is very easy to say I follow what you give me therefore it is your fault for not leading it correctly...we should assume some responsibility, because really we don't know if we actually followed..! We might be right at one moment and wrong for the other..!
For me the best way to deal with it, is try to see the whole thing as a growing experience, be open to change, be open to listening and dancing with every part of your body...after a little you will know what works and what doesn't work..! Especially when you are dancing socially, who is responsible for the mistakes has very little importance, but how it feels to be there, in that moment, creating movement through your body, is something that will give you more joy and a base to grow from!
 

Purr

Well-Known Member
Cool. New hobby, sounds like!
I am a ballroom dancer first, and I have heard from many leads that I follow pretty well. I really enjoy argentine tango - the connection, the freedom of expression and the movements. Argentine tango has also been a good learning tool, too, for connection, patience waiting for the lead, and following.

My favorite movements are the forward and backward ochos and the molinetes. I also like the leg hooks - not sure the proper name for this. And I understanding the concept of what a cruzado is.

The foot traps are interesting, or the foot trap to lead moving the follow's foot, to follow moving the lead's foot. It seems like an elaborate game of playing footsie.
 
Why is this such a hard concept? Don't blame the other person and automatically assume the teacher role. It's that simple.
I attend a practica usually with a dedicated partner with which I've taken a class or workshop before.
Beeing both learners I never ever had problems to receive or give feedback in a proper way.
And in a milonga I try to enjoy the dance as it is.
 
Why is it always rude? Is that the only possibility?
This, (unsolicited feedback is always rude), has continued to disturb me for a reason i couldn't se clearly at once. Thanks to several of you who helped me to see different aspects of the situation. Now I have landed on this

I agree that unsolicited feedback is often counterproductive.
I vigorously disagree about the rudeness of this action.

Though I still wonder why you add the negative emotional load to the leader feedback?
(I would agree if the follower had some kind of handicap so the corrections asked were beyond her ability: then it would be rude even in my opinion.)

IMO your choice of standpoint has impact on your reaction turning it from a neutral one to a slightly agressive for the second with the emotional load.

Your responce to a counterproductive leader: I would prefer just to dance! OK? //I had a bad day and I cannot learn anything today! // I think I disagree here but I don't want to talk about it. Can we dance with other steps?//

Your responce to a rude leader: THANK YOU! (and leave the pista) // Are you some kind of teacher here? //
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
I don't quite understand this post. What do you mean by:

Though I still wonder why you add the negative emotional load to the leader feedback?
(I would agree if the follower had some kind of handicap so the corrections asked were beyond her ability: then it would be rude even in my opinion.)
It seems like you are thinking we are talking only about leaders correcting followers, or that we only call it rude when it is leaders correcting followers? That isn't the case. Leaders experience unwanted and useless correction also.

IMO your choice of standpoint has impact on your reaction turning it from a neutral one to a slightly agressive for the second with the emotional load.
I really don't know what you mean by "2nd emotional load". What was the first emotional load? What is the 2nd emotional load?

Your responce to a counterproductive leader: I would prefer just to dance! OK? //I had a bad day and I cannot learn anything today! // I think I disagree here but I don't want to talk about it. Can we dance with other steps?//

Your responce to a rude leader: THANK YOU! (and leave the pista) // Are you some kind of teacher here? //
So it sounds like you agree that unsolicited feedback is likely to be counterproductive and/or rude? I can't tell.

To me it is rude to assume another person is at fault, and TELL them they are at fault, while considering oneself blameless. It's more than just counterproductive... that's a different issue. One's feedback can be totally correct and still be counterproductive. Blame however is arrogant, and yes, rude.

Unless there is a great disparity of experience/skill, the error is almost certainly somewhat on both sides. It may be 80/20 and not 50/50, but even the BEST dancers have off nights or problem areas that they are working on. (if they didn't have things they are still working on, they wouldn't have become the best dancers!).

The "rudeness" comes into play based on the approach. "That didn't work.. let's figure out why" is vastly different from saying some variant of "YOU messed up". Even if someone is SURE the other person is the problem, comments can still be phrased in a better way. "I would like to feel more X". or "I feel x when you do y".

For a frustrated leader, it can go like this: "I was trying to lead you to X; can you tell me why you didn't feel/do X?". Even if that leader is CERTAIN the follower was simply wrong, asking the other person for their feedback on what happened opens the dialog and gives one a chance to say their piece without sounding like an arrogant jerk.
 
Look at it this way. When you give an unsolicited feedback the following happens: this is not your territory, another person did not invite you in, you crossed the boundary, and now you expect the said person to react ( and in a positive way pretty please, otherwise they are rude). :)
 
I don't quite understand this post. What do you mean by:

It seems like you are thinking we are talking only about leaders correcting followers, or that we only call it rude when it is leaders correcting followers? That isn't the case. Leaders experience unwanted and useless correction also.

I really don't know what you mean by "2nd emotional load". What was the first emotional load? What is the 2nd emotional load?

So it sounds like you agree that unsolicited feedback is likely to be counterproductive and/or rude? I can't tell.

To me it is rude to assume another person is at fault, and TELL them they are at fault, while considering oneself blameless. It's more than just counterproductive... that's a different issue. One's feedback can be totally correct and still be counterproductive. Blame however is arrogant, and yes, rude.

Unless there is a great disparity of experience/skill, the error is almost certainly somewhat on both sides. It may be 80/20 and not 50/50, but even the BEST dancers have off nights or problem areas that they are working on. (if they didn't have things they are still working on, they wouldn't have become the best dancers!).

The "rudeness" comes into play based on the approach. "That didn't work.. let's figure out why" is vastly different from saying some variant of "YOU messed up". Even if someone is SURE the other person is the problem, comments can still be phrased in a better way. "I would like to feel more X". or "I feel x when you do y".

For a frustrated leader, it can go like this: "I was trying to lead you to X; can you tell me why you didn't feel/do X?". Even if that leader is CERTAIN the follower was simply wrong, asking the other person for their feedback on what happened opens the dialog and gives one a chance to say their piece without sounding like an arrogant jerk.
I wonder if we could restart here? I think we still share at least one goal - how to make the tango life less painful for the follower.

One important thing I have wanted to put through here at DF is that during my transit from follower to leader I became aware of that some part of the pain was removed when I learned more about the leaders' reality, the available options for a leader.

How could we pass this kind of information to followers? and make her tango life easier.

Could we also together discuss how we could learn to tell apart a socially disabled leader from a true evil leader? and best ways to meet these two?

Many of you are teachers so what are your best strategies you usually pass to your students in these matters? What do you tell your students about strategies to keep the communication alive but still address painful issues? We others then what could do it easier for the follower?

(The way I presented the questions are based on personal experiences: My life as a follower, the transit and the subjects at different internet sources as well as talks with my friends.)
 
I wonder if we could restart here? I think we still share at least one goal - how to make the tango life less painful for the follower.

One important thing I have wanted to put through here at DF is that during my transit from follower to leader I became aware of that some part of the pain was removed when I learned more about the leaders' reality, the available options for a leader.

How could we pass this kind of information to followers? and make her tango life easier.

Could we also together discuss how we could learn to tell apart a socially disabled leader from a true evil leader? and best ways to meet these two?

Many of you are teachers so what are your best strategies you usually pass to your students in these matters? What do you tell your students about strategies to keep the communication alive but still address painful issues? We others then what could do it easier for the follower?

(The way I presented the questions are based on personal experiences: My life as a follower, the transit and the subjects at different internet sources as well as talks with my friends.)
As a teacher, I understand my role differently in a guided practica and differently in a class..! Why I am mentioning the class? Because it is in there that you can see who is the "Mr. or Ms Know it all" who is the "Mr. or Ms Best Tango dancer in the world", who is the "Mr. or Ms I have spend too much money and too much time to listen to other people" and who is the "Mr or Ms I suck at this" or the "Mr or Ms this is my new hobby and I want to enjoy it".
Different people and behaviours...In class an instructor has the opportunity to address the hurtful people and boost the confidence of the people with lower self esteem. Most importantly though in class the instructor has the opportunity to teach not only Tango but also proper human relationships, teach people how to be respectful, nice and caring to each other. You can do that through the dance, as you are teaching a sequence or by challenging and addressing certain behaviours or by by doing milonga etiquette drills in the form of a game..!
It is quite surprising how many people go through life without having proper manors, and without taking one second to consider that they might be hurting the other person. It is also though surprising how many people go through life getting so easily hurt, thinking they are always bullied, thinking that their whole life is drama! Sometimes the other person is not being a rude, he/she is just trying to help, but we don't see it because all we think about is "....aaaa!!! he/she is criticizing me!!!" So in class the instructor can and should in my opinion address these matters, in order to educate!
In a guided practica, on the other hand, while most people think that as an instructor I am there to give them, more sequences I believe I am there to guide them on how to practise effectively! How structure their practise and how to effectively work with their partner in order to see progress! With that in mind I try to address the problematic behaviours!
I have seen leaders and followers being rude, I don't think it has it has to do with the role but with the person..! One of the simplest and most effective drills for a practica and or a class--depending on the level of the participants--is to make people change roles..! See for one dance how it is to be in the other person's shoes..!
Or the other thing I did, which was quite fun...haha...I was going around in the practica telling my students to imagine that I have hurt my leg, and I would be able to dance properly...It was interesting to see people's reactions..! ;)
 

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