To claim or not to claim...that is your milonga!

#41
so do the nuevo dancers tend to dance in open, or do they move between the two?

and how long does it take them to get good at dancing nuevo? i've been staying away from a lot of nuevo stuff because it seems harder then dancing simpler stuff
 

Peaches

Well-Known Member
#42
See my post about lessons at the Viscount.
Many, if not most, people here in the Portland area seem to start out in an open embrace. It is taught that way because many of us aren't ready for the contact of the close embrace. (Megan is a wonderful woman, but the first time she came at me looking for the close embrace, I literally reared back away from it. I'm over that now.)
So, if you start out in open embrace, and learn to dance to milonga rhythm along with tango, and never move into a close embrace, you end up not knowing that it can be easier to dance that way.
Portland is known as a "close embrace" town, I've heard, but the are lots of nuevo type dancers, too.
Obviously, I think, it was the newer dancers who said this to me.
Ah...sorry 'bout that... Didn't mean that it's not out there, just that I haven't personally run across it.

Then again, I've never taken a regular group class in AT. (Drop-in classes before milongas, but I considered them mostly warm-up.)
 

Peaches

Well-Known Member
#43
so do the nuevo dancers tend to dance in open, or do they move between the two?

and how long does it take them to get good at dancing nuevo? i've been staying away from a lot of nuevo stuff because it seems harder then dancing simpler stuff
Um...yes? :D Seems to be done in both?

I'd say it takes about as long to get good at nuevo as it does for anything else. It's just a different style. "Simple" stuff can be just as hard to get good as the more "difficult" stuff.
 
#44
It's interesting that Steve Pastor mentioned that Milonga is just a glorified One Step, because I've felt something similar, that it almost has the feel of a Peabody (a not so snooty Quickstep). I've only danced it in close embrace and really enjoy the traspie elements that really keep the follow paying attention, but I love syncopation in all dances. One think that might make it more intimidating to leaders IS the syncopation. While I think Steve mentioned Milonga is all about rythym, I would say it is about musicality. Paying attention to the melody and counter rhythms as well as the main beat. That's what makes it fun for me as a follow and what can be intimidating as a leader.

If I went to a Milonga in Buenos Aires or Portland or Eugene and sat out two thirds of the dances because I didn't know milonga style, I would be just as depressed as if I went to a Salsa dance and sat out all Merengues or Cumbias. Knowing at least the basics of all the dances in the genre you are dancing is a no brainer for me. Why skip some of the feast?
 
#45
"So, who was it?" sounds too much like something that should be confined to the innards of a police cell to my mind and plus, if my posting was about naming and shaming I would have done just that. The teacher in question did not offend any particular race of people, neither was she detrimentally aiming a slur at the shade or size of another or at a particular religious persuasion. Hers was merely an opinion which I read, thought about (still thinking about) and decided to post and then to read the interpretations of others on this site. Nothing more/nothing less. So take a breath already
:confused:
All I wanted to know, was who the teacher was. It was just an innocent question, I wasn't trying to run a witchhunt or something - my apologies if it came across that way.

Believe me, if I'd thought the teacher was saying something totally dumb, I'd have said so - I'm not one to hide my opinions, I've heard of this "discretion" stuff, but I want no part of it :D

I'd still like to know who it was - but if for some reason you don't want to advertise her business, could you PM her name to me? I don't see why it should be a secret...
 
#46
I'd say it takes about as long to get good at nuevo as it does for anything else. It's just a different style. "Simple" stuff can be just as hard to get good as the more "difficult" stuff.
Agree.

It's not a bad idea to work on "simple" stuff first though - you know, balance, posture, walking etc, before trying all the crazy nuevo stuff. Although, if you wait to get "really good" at this stuff you might never get around to boleos and ganchos at all!

Also, nuevo for me isn't all about moves, but a different way of dancing altogether. You can watch a typical milonguero couple, a villa urquiza couple and a nuevo couple do the same few simple steps and they will all be done in a different style (posture, embrace, pivoting, feet, knees, hips and more). And the differences in the way it feels are even greater.
 
#47
Personally, I think milonga is so much easier to follow in close embrace--it's just so much easier to really feel the weight changes.
I agree - from what little I know of it, it's such a fast dance that it almost has to be done in close embrace to be effective, your reactions will be much faster if you're in close contact.

One other question - we've got clearly-defined Milonga / Tango / Vals dances, but there are of course also lots of variants of Tango - e.g. nuevo. As I understand it, the Milonga / Tango / Vals differentiation is derived based on the different underlying musical styles. So, since nuevo is often danced to neo-Tango music, should that be counted as a separate fourth style also?
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#49
One London teacher quoted these words on her weekly letter:

"Milonga is one of the three dances from a Tango family. You can't
claim you can dance Tango if you have not also mastered this cheerful
and rhythmical dance"


I'm undecided as to whether the statement true. (Still mulling it). What do you think? If, you are reasonably (or notably) proficient at following or leading tango but shun the milonga can you still claim to be able to dance Tango?
From a cultural viewpoint it is probably true; but I could dance tango competetently long before I could do anything in milonga; and I discovered why when a visiting teacher from the Nederlands explained how to do short sharp steps ( traspie sort of speeds) and ordinary milonga speed steps; by a stiffening of the posture then softening again and bingo! it worked. It also requires an ability to dance close embrace; milonga is an open embrace is harder than in close and I wouldn't normally dance it this way unless at a follower's behest.

From a philosophical point of view the statement is untrue; it would be like saying you need to dance ballet in order to dance contemporary (ie Martha Graham) or visa versa
 

Peaches

Well-Known Member
#50
Also, nuevo for me isn't all about moves, but a different way of dancing altogether. You can watch a typical milonguero couple, a villa urquiza couple and a nuevo couple do the same few simple steps and they will all be done in a different style (posture, embrace, pivoting, feet, knees, hips and more). And the differences in the way it feels are even greater.
Could you please elaborate as to the differences?

Villa Urquiza style has been mentioned a few times recently, but I know nothing about it. Could someone please describe it?
 

Peaches

Well-Known Member
#51
One other question - we've got clearly-defined Milonga / Tango / Vals dances, but there are of course also lots of variants of Tango - e.g. nuevo. As I understand it, the Milonga / Tango / Vals differentiation is derived based on the different underlying musical styles. So, since nuevo is often danced to neo-Tango music, should that be counted as a separate fourth style also?
A couple of thoughts...

Just as there are variations in tango dance, there are variations in milonga and vals as well.

I strongly hesitate to call the tango/milonga/vals musical differences as ones of style. "Style," to me, implies that they are fundamentally the same thing which (again, to me) they're not. Vals music in particular, being in some form of 3 (either 3/4 or 6/8, most likely), is a rather different critter than the others. I see tango and milonga as possibly being more similar, just based on time signature alone, but traditional milongas often have a particular (1, a 2, & 3, a 4) syncopation used throughout which is useful in distinguishing them.

Also, depending on how you define "nuevo dancing," it can be danced to traditional music. Don't confuse correlation and causation. It can also be danced to alternative music.

And, last, as somone else pointed out...there are plenty of nuevo (music) milongas and valses. Plenty. As well as plenty of alternative tangos, milongas and valses. (And "alternative" isn't considered a style of dancing.)
 
#52
Whatevs...I think that London teacher's statement was simply a bit of marketing-speak to get people's attention. Doesn't mean anything and it shouldn't be interpreted as any kind of slight to people who don't know milonga. I would treat it the same as any other ad or commercial you see, it either interests you or not, but no need to take it personally.
Absolutely and exactly! How some take it personally eh? Wheweee!!
 
#53
Jeez. Prickly, are we?

I, for one, certainly never got the impression that Dave found it insulting, or that he implied there was any shaming going on...just that he was curious as to the speaker.

So far you're the only one seeming to get worked up over a (seemingly) innocent question. Take a breath already, yourself...it's all good.

My dear...we are two worlds apart yet separated by one common language. And you have seemed to have entered into a fold with pulsing veins and a reddened heart along with a few wisened words of revolt ready to aim. At me. Once again. Whatever you say will harm my ego not and I am sure the good gentleman Dave is quite able and strong of feat to fight his own corner and need not a littly missy to stand and protect his honour. You can't see me, but trust me, I am smiling. Now run along.
 

Me

New Member
#54
Oh come on guys, the drama is very annoying. Please stop it!

I was going to reply to some of the other threads but now I'm too annoyed to think.

I'm getting some coffee now.
 
#55
From:
Someone who knows more about music should reply to that, but don't forget that there are neo-waltzes and neo-milongas as well.
and:
Just as there are variations in tango dance, there are variations in milonga and vals as well.
There are? I never knew that - wow, it's a whole world out there isn't it. So we've got about 20 fiendishly-difficult dances to learn, not just 1. Oh good...
 
#56
My dear...we are two worlds apart yet separated by one common language.
Indeed, and as I'm in North London, and you're Darn Sarf, it's no wonder we can't communicate with each other :)

I am sure the good gentleman Dave is quite able and strong of feat to fight his own corner and need not a littly missy to stand and protect his honour.
No, I'm very weak of feat in fact.

But seriously, who was the teacher? It's bugging me now...
 
#57
Indeed, and as I'm in North London, and you're Darn Sarf, it's no wonder we can't communicate with each other :)


No, I'm very weak of feat in fact.

But seriously, who was the teacher? It's bugging me now...
And now you're truly going to hate me because I really can't remember. The name "Kicca" doesn't ring a bell so it wasn't her. I literally just skim the ads and only rested on this one because of the milonga comment. Tony Walker has an email newsletter that he sends out about things going on so you may get it from that. Your translatlantic friend from across the Pond came out with all her guns blazing in your defence and told me to take breath..ha, ha, ha. They have yet to understand that there is a war going between the North Londoners and South Londoners but like No.10 politicians at the end of day, we sit and break bread over cigars and fine brandy. Speaking of which, somebody told me the other day that the way they dance tango in North London is different to the way we dance in the south. Any truth in that?

And you may already know of the Tango Frightnight taking place this weekend. Mainly Corrientes and the Crypt doing dress up with live toony-toons. Hmmm, wonder how many will fit a large black pointy wide-brimmed hat into a close embrace. See and report back will you, as I'm giving it a miss in favour of movies and din-dins. :nope:
 
#58
And now you're truly going to hate me because I really can't remember.
Arrghhhh!!! :headwall:

Speaking of which, somebody told me the other day that the way they dance tango in North London is different to the way we dance in the south. Any truth in that?
Now you're just taking the you-know-what, aren't you?

And you may already know of the Tango Frightnight taking place this weekend. Mainly Corrientes and the Crypt doing dress up with live toony-toons. Hmmm, wonder how many will fit a large black pointy wide-brimmed hat into a close embrace. See and report back will you, as I'm giving it a miss in favour of movies and din-dins. :nope:
I'm just doing Negracha this weekend - it's got a class from the wonderful Damian (he's a North London teacher, you know ;)), plus a "bandoneon solo performance", apparently. Not sure about that last one, but we'll see..
 
#59
Could you please elaborate as to the differences?

Villa Urquiza style has been mentioned a few times recently, but I know nothing about it. Could someone please describe it?
It is a kind of Salon style from the barrio of Villa Urquiza. Most of the styles in AT refer to the way used to dance in a region of Rio de la Plata or in a barrio of Buenos Aires. Being tango a popular dance, made by the people, tango styles are not something fixed and crystallized and in the end there are as many styles as dancers. We all dance a mix of styles, more or less near to the one we like most. I like this kind of freedom very much!

By the way, when you dance in a milonga, either in BsAs or in any other place in the world, you can hardly choose a style and stick to it if it is not compatible with the conditions of the room (ie the kind of floor, the number of people dancing and so on). It usually happens that the dancers in close embrace dance in the middle of the evening while open embrace dancers dance at the beginning and at the end, when the dance floor is not too crowded, the first being the beginners and the latter being the nuevo people.

Back to the Villa Urquiza style: I just googled for a video and I found this one http://www.neymelo.com/jorgedispari.htm
 
#60
One other question - we've got clearly-defined Milonga / Tango / Vals dances, but there are of course also lots of variants of Tango - e.g. nuevo. As I understand it, the Milonga / Tango / Vals differentiation is derived based on the different underlying musical styles. So, since nuevo is often danced to neo-Tango music, should that be counted as a separate fourth style also?
Do you distinguish between tango milonguero and other kinds of Argentine tango? ;) You just adapt your way of dancing on what is being played.

The distinction is made on the musical pattern and not on the style: that's why we talk about tango, milonga and vals, but we do not separate nuevo from that. It is a matter of musical style.

Some time ago I found this chart: http://www.protangoperu.com/investigacion/pic/estilos-min.JPG
It's helpful to set the styles of tango music in their own time.
 

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