to tap or not to tap (Hustle)

#21
i am of the &1 2 3 school of timing, (1 2 &3 to me is like beta-max - you've heard of it, but more than slightly surprised when you actually find one that works as the phrasing never feels right to me).
I guess I'm doing a beta-max Hustle. Since I have never done &123 I can't compare, but I have done 4 count Hustle and find it sort of stiff.
 
#22
I think the two aren't necessarily any different, just different ways of counting it. My ballroom teacher learned hustle as 1 2&3 in the Detroit style (Forward, Back, Close, Forward) and I never had any issue dancing &1 2 3 with a rock step while I danced with her... it kept me more honest on my rock step by starting forward on 2 rather than trying to quickly hit an & and landing on 1 instead when starting.

Edit: I realized after posting that I was a bit confused... I agree with tsb, if you actually start 12&3 on the 1 of the phrase it just doesn't feel right. I was omitting the opening rock and just dancing &123, regardless of how my follow was counting it.


&123 hustle is musical, it doesn't line up with traditional 8 or 16 bar phrasing if you strip it to figures with &123 timing, but it picks up a certain energy moving across the phrase. It might be harder to make a quicker rock look good but you never get to hit any syncopated accents if you only dance on the beats.
Other than slow music ,i totaly disagree, it pick
s up no energy when danced med/fast,i have a question have you danced NY &123 like i have for 10 years?- you mentioned ballroom(which i can do and like ballroom) but most ballroom people cant do hustle well-there stiff ( maybe 30 percent are not) hustle was meant to danced fast & med like the 70's but with modern moves-its pretty slow but one can see that style on The lawerence welk show(which i liked some of the dancers) they were doing that Before ny pretty stuff, hustle is meant to be dynamic,not locked into a unatural beat. you wrote like a musican in a sense are you? and if you are, are you classical? jazz, what style have you played in bands that did disco/hustle music like me? i ask beacuse many people never played music but somehow there music teachers or there from opera/classical background which is nothing like hustle,salsa, wc etc music(cool but totaly different.
 
#23
Other than slow music ,i totaly disagree, it pick
s up no energy when danced med/fast,i have a question have you danced NY &123 like i have for 10 years?- you mentioned ballroom(which i can do and like ballroom) but most ballroom people cant do hustle well-there stiff ( maybe 30 percent are not) hustle was meant to danced fast & med like the 70's but with modern moves-its pretty slow but one can see that style on The lawerence welk show(which i liked some of the dancers) they were doing that Before ny pretty stuff, hustle is meant to be dynamic,not locked into a unatural beat. you wrote like a musican in a sense are you? and if you are, are you classical? jazz, what style have you played in bands that did disco/hustle music like me? i ask beacuse many people never played music but somehow there music teachers or there from opera/classical background which is nothing like hustle,salsa, wc etc music(cool but totaly different.
Reading this I think I might have been coming at it with a different idea of speed in music. It seems I was thinking a lot slower than you were, I know I'd probably have issues looking decent and keeping on beat at the faster speeds you mention.

I've only been dancing for a few years now, hustle for about 2 years and never had a technique class for hustle (I learned some basics on youtube to start dancing it, please don't hate me) and most of what I do is either ported from other dances or made up on the spot as it strikes me.

I played sax for something like 7 years in school, played in concert and jazz band, never got really good and mostly stopped playing when I went to college and started dancing. I was also in the a capella group in my fraternity chapter to try to develop that a bit, but didn't do great there either. I was never much more than an amateur musician but it has helped a bit in dancing.

I'll yield to experience, my ideas were based on experiences but it's a bit like making assumptions on an ocean by observing a puddle.
 
#24
thats not true at all i did ny hustle for 10 years, i now teach a four count hustle 1234 5678 thats musical &123 is not
I call BS on this. The dance is not the steps.

A three count "basic" in hustle isn't really all that different from a six count basic in swing, or bronze foxtrot. In fact, for hustle patterns/amalgamations that use pairs of basics, it's exactly the same issue. You can even count the dance in two, rather than in three, if that makes you happier about the analogy (&1 2/ 1&2 / 1-2).

That said, a four beat basic is going to be a lot more automatic. I'd worry about the ball change turning into a rock step, but I suppose you could learn to coach people out of that if it's actually an issue.

drejenpha said:
Edit: I realized after posting that I was a bit confused... I agree with tsb, if you actually start 12&3 on the 1 of the phrase it just doesn't feel right.
What do you do on the next phrase (which starts on 3)? Throw in a two beat fake somewhere? Do you just ignore the beginning of the second mini-phrase (which starts on 2)? The music doesn't stop, so how to you make sure the other phrases "feel right".
 
#25
What do you do on the next phrase (which starts on 3)? Throw in a two beat fake somewhere? Do you just ignore the beginning of the second mini-phrase (which starts on 2)? The music doesn't stop, so how to you make sure the other phrases "feel right".
To stay on the 8 measure phrase, 8 sets of 3 count basics or other 3 count figures (6 measures) one 3 count with a wrap (I'm hoping I'm using the correct term... keep hold of both hands and turn the follow into your right arm so she'll be facing the same way you were, then move your right hand to her back) and a 5 count forward walk, woman turns back to face on 4, stepping back on 5. The walk goes big or little depending on if the phrase is swelling or shrinking to the end and then you're starting 3 count again as the new phrase starts (I've found it easier to break forward after the walk, this can lend itself to moving your first 3 in the next phrase to end in promenade if you want to as well).
 
#26
To stay on the 8 measure phrase, 8 sets of 3 count basics or other 3 count figures (6 measures) one 3 count with a wrap (I'm hoping I'm using the correct term... keep hold of both hands and turn the follow into your right arm so she'll be facing the same way you were, then move your right hand to her back) and a 5 count forward walk, woman turns back to face on 4, stepping back on 5. The walk goes big or little depending on if the phrase is swelling or shrinking to the end and then you're starting 3 count again as the new phrase starts (I've found it easier to break forward after the walk, this can lend itself to moving your first 3 in the next phrase to end in promenade if you want to as well).
Sounds reasonable. How does it feel if you put the walk extension in the middle? 3 measures - wrap - walk - 3 measures.
 
#27
Sounds reasonable. How does it feel if you put the walk extension in the middle? 3 measures - wrap - walk - 3 measures.
It's worked for me in the past (shortest hustle I've ever done, was the first round of a ballroom fun dance and I walked right at a judge and got my tap) but I guess it really depends on what the song is doing.
 
#28
Reading this I think I might have been coming at it with a different idea of speed in music. It seems I was thinking a lot slower than you were, I know I'd probably have issues looking decent and keeping on beat at the faster speeds you mention.

I've only been dancing for a few years now, hustle for about 2 years and never had a technique class for hustle (I learned some basics on youtube to start dancing it, please don't hate me) and most of what I do is either ported from other dances or made up on the spot as it strikes me.

I played sax for something like 7 years in school, played in concert and jazz band, never got really good and mostly stopped playing when I went to college and started dancing. I was also in the a capella group in my fraternity chapter to try to develop that a bit, but didn't do great there either. I was never much more than an amateur musician but it has helped a bit in dancing.

I'll yield to experience, my ideas were based on experiences but it's a bit like making assumptions on an ocean by observing a puddle.
Thats cool im glad u have some musical background, I apreciate your ending anology-hats off to you, keep dancing trying out different ideas with hustle-you"ll come to see more of what i wrote by interaction with NY style&123 and 4 count if you find people to dance hustle with.
 
#29
I call BS on this. The dance is not the steps.

A three count "basic" in hustle isn't really all that different from a six count basic in swing, or bronze foxtrot. In fact, for hustle patterns/amalgamations that use pairs of basics, it's exactly the same issue. You can even count the dance in two, rather than in three, if that makes you happier about the analogy (&1 2/ 1&2 / 1-2).

That said, a four beat basic is going to be a lot more automatic. I'd worry about the ball change turning into a rock step, but I suppose you could learn to coach people out of that if it's actually an issue.



What do you do on the next phrase (which starts on 3)? Throw in a two beat fake somewhere? Do you just ignore the beginning of the second mini-phrase (which starts on 2)? The music doesn't stop, so how to you make sure the other phrases "feel right".
Im not sure what u mean by bs(bull-----) or something else, i disagree with you counting swing/with hustle/swing 4 count or tripple step works with the music, but tripple step works only with slow music,if anyone does the 3 +3 step rock step hence 8 count fast its look terrible infact show me some one who can-what somepeople miss in this and Hustle is you DO NOT have to step all the time-pauses are counts too.if anyone gets what i just wrote with four count hustle or whatever dance -you never have a problem dancing on time.
 
#30
I am learning 3 step Hustle but I'm too much of a novice to follow most of this discussion. So, I'm asking for an opinion: To the casual persona watching is there much difference between 3 or 4 step Hustle? I must admit that 3 step is confusing for me so I sometimes lose the beat, and it takes me awhile to get back on it. It feels weird to do a 3 step in a 4 beat measure but I'm gradually getting used to it.

Should I be asking my instructor to teach me 4 step Hustle or will that just hopelessly confuse me?
 
#31
I am learning 3 step Hustle but I'm too much of a novice to follow most of this discussion. So, I'm asking for an opinion: To the casual persona watching is there much difference between 3 or 4 step Hustle? I must admit that 3 step is confusing for me so I sometimes lose the beat, and it takes me awhile to get back on it. It feels weird to do a 3 step in a 4 beat measure but I'm gradually getting used to it.

Should I be asking my instructor to teach me 4 step Hustle or will that just hopelessly confuse me?
Are you going to be able to use 4 step hustle where you dance? If you don't have partners who are comfortable dancing that way, it's not going to be very useful. That's the more important question, I should think: there's no "for the sake of knowing it" justification for 4 count hustle.

Answering the questions you asked: I think that the casual persona doesn't care. Visually, if two couples are dancing next to each other, I think the casual observer can see that the movement is different, but won't necessarily choose one or the other as better (or rather, they'll identify the better dancers regardless of who is doing the 3 count step). If you're dancing in isolation - no, casual observers aren't really going to see anything but your dance.

Casual dancers will see the difference; whether or not they care will depend on their attitudes.

I don't encourage any student to ask their instructor to change lesson plans because "they read something on the internet".
 

tsb

Well-Known Member
#33
I guess I'm doing a beta-max Hustle. Since I have never done &123 I can't compare, but I have done 4 count Hustle and find it sort of stiff.
maybe it's more a east coast thing? here in s.ca i know most of the hustle instructors out here, and i can't think of a single one that promotes a 1 2 &3 timing here.

as for 4 count, it just feels slow to me - but it i have found it to be a very useful stepping stone towards assimilating basic 3 count hustle; more often than not, i can show a complete beginner 4 count hustle using a small basic rock step in place of the syncopation of the "&1", lead a number of basic figures including shadow and during that same first song, switch to a 3 count using a &1 2 3 pattern and, other then having to get them not to "hop" on the syncopation, get them to follow basic figures quite smoothly.
 

tsb

Well-Known Member
#34
Other than slow music ,i totaly disagree, it pick
s up no energy when danced med/fast,i have a question have you danced NY &123 like i have for 10 years?- you mentioned ballroom(which i can do and like ballroom) but most ballroom people cant do hustle well-there stiff ( maybe 30 percent are not) hustle was meant to danced fast & med like the 70's but with modern moves-its pretty slow but one can see that style on The lawerence welk show(which i liked some of the dancers) they were doing that Before ny pretty stuff, hustle is meant to be dynamic,not locked into a unatural beat. you wrote like a musican in a sense are you? and if you are, are you classical? jazz, what style have you played in bands that did disco/hustle music like me? i ask beacuse many people never played music but somehow there music teachers or there from opera/classical background which is nothing like hustle,salsa, wc etc music(cool but totaly different.
hustle is now danced to a a much slower tempo now than back in the day - probably because we're a lot older and can't handle that tempo anymore!
 

tsb

Well-Known Member
#35
I am learning 3 step Hustle but I'm too much of a novice to follow most of this discussion. So, I'm asking for an opinion: To the casual persona watching is there much difference between 3 or 4 step Hustle? I must admit that 3 step is confusing for me so I sometimes lose the beat, and it takes me awhile to get back on it. It feels weird to do a 3 step in a 4 beat measure but I'm gradually getting used to it.

Should I be asking my instructor to teach me 4 step Hustle or will that just hopelessly confuse me?
it's my take that hustle was traditionally danced to music that had more of a uniform pulse on every beat (which was more common during the disco era) which made it less obvious where the downbeat ("1") was. DJ's have moved away from that particular characteristic in play lists nowadays. i personally don't like that, but there it is.

as mentioned in a previous post, 4 count will seem slow to someone experienced with 3 count hustle - but it can be used as a teaching tool towards assimilating 3 count - my first teacher started with 4 count and moved to 3 count fairly quickly. but if the choice is sitting out vs. dancing with a complete beginner for the sake of enjoying the song, it's fairly easy to show someone a 4 count basic step and go with that for 3 minutes.
 

tsb

Well-Known Member
#36
I think the two aren't necessarily any different, just different ways of counting it. My ballroom teacher learned hustle as 1 2&3 in the Detroit style (Forward, Back, Close, Forward) and I never had any issue dancing &1 2 3 with a rock step while I danced with her... it kept me more honest on my rock step by starting forward on 2 rather than trying to quickly hit an & and landing on 1 instead when starting.

Edit: I realized after posting that I was a bit confused... I agree with tsb, if you actually start 12&3 on the 1 of the phrase it just doesn't feel right. I was omitting the opening rock and just dancing &123, regardless of how my follow was counting it.


&123 hustle is musical, it doesn't line up with traditional 8 or 16 bar phrasing if you strip it to figures with &123 timing, but it picks up a certain energy moving across the phrase. It might be harder to make a quicker rock look good but you never get to hit any syncopated accents if you only dance on the beats.
to me, it just feels more lyrical, and the syncopation also helps communicate the beginning of the next figure or end of the current figure depending on what you're leading. greater clarity in the lead is seldom a bad thing.
 
#37
hustle is now danced to a a much slower tempo now than back in the day - probably because we're a lot older and can't handle that tempo anymore!
well there u have it, im 53, i know what you mean,so im not saying its not good for older people &123,but for younger people its will not and does not work&123, they feel its out of order with the music, i know from years of experiance, i can go in any nightclub in the world and get young girls dancing a four count hustle right away-thats not the case with &123, here in the east coast they do not teach nor do thry have young people in Hustle NY style-maybe 10, unless you go to baltimore md-where david flynn has about 60 young people dancing 4 count hustle-he broke the mold. this i why i firm on this stuuf, everyone but NY style hustle knows dancing goes to the young in terms of mentoring etc... they do NOT know this and Have not kept up with the times. but some of us 53 can sort of keep up with the younger folk
 
#38
As a practical matter I'm limited in terms of dancing experience but have learned to lead basic Hustle in the 12&3 count. I struggle with it and it's unlikely I'm going to learn those other counts anytime soon although with determination I'm sure I could find some instructors that would teach me these. Unfortunately Hustle just doesn't seem to be popular in the Phoenix metro area so the choices are limited in terms of places to practice and to get lessons.

So what if I meet a partner that knows four count, or &123, or other variations of the Hustle. Is her (follower) responsibility to be able to adapt to whatever I know? What if we both know the Hustle but can't do it together?
 
#39
So what if I meet a partner that knows four count, or &123, or other variations of the Hustle. Is her (follower) responsibility to be able to adapt to whatever I know? What if we both know the Hustle but can't do it together?
It's the job of the dancer who can adapt to match the one who can't.

As for &123, don't worry about it. Except perhaps for the first step(*), the only real difference between 12&3, &123, &121&212, etc is the counting going on inside the dancer's head. Do you have trouble dancing with partners who count in a different language than you do? same thing - as long as the two of you aren't trying to count for each other, you'll be fine.


(*) You may have seen the same thing in country two step, when a dancer who starts on a "slow" partners a dancer who starts on "quick quick"? Yeah, for a couple of beats they need to get together, but after that it's fine. Same thing(**).

(**) In other words, it's NOT like salsa, where counting On1 really differs from counting On2.
 

tsb

Well-Known Member
#40
As a practical matter I'm limited in terms of dancing experience but have learned to lead basic Hustle in the 12&3 count. I struggle with it and it's unlikely I'm going to learn those other counts anytime soon although with determination I'm sure I could find some instructors that would teach me these. Unfortunately Hustle just doesn't seem to be popular in the Phoenix metro area so the choices are limited in terms of places to practice and to get lessons.

So what if I meet a partner that knows four count, or &123, or other variations of the Hustle. Is her (follower) responsibility to be able to adapt to whatever I know? What if we both know the Hustle but can't do it together?
if she's a decent follow and your lead is competent she should be able to follow you. and if not, it's only 3 minutes or so!

BTW, hustle isn't the only dance that can have a variable rhythm; for example, i've seen nightclub 2 step taught as slow quick quick or quick quick slow. i learned it as SQQ, but i have found QQS sometimes feels more lyrical depending on the music. and of course, salsa rhythm varies by region here in the US (breaking on 1 more common on the west coast vs. breaking on 2 on the east coast).
 

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