Toe leads for every step for the man?

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
#41
I am afraid that both are wrong. I have been told by some very good Milongueros, that you never step with the toe or the heel, but instead step on a flat foot. The toe and heel must meet the floor at exactly the same time, much like the way that a cat steps. This will give you the smoothest gait and the follow will barely feel anything except for a smooth glide. When you reach the perfect equilibrium with your completely flat steps, it will feel like you are dancing on clouds.
I reeeeally think that's simply another preference.

BTW, have you ever seen a cat land on anything other than the ball of it's foot?
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#42
I reeeeally think that's simply another preference.

BTW, have you ever seen a cat land on anything other than the ball of it's foot?
yes. I've seen a cat land on our fence..

its a flaws comparison since1. if you look at the bone structure its front and back tarsals meta-tarsals and phalanges are arranged differently to a human foot.
2. Cats mostly walk on four legs not two.
3. Cats don't dance to tango music, they prefer jazz.
 

LadyLeader

Active Member
#43
For general walking, close embrace, I land completely flat but with weight on the forefoot. I never heel-toe because landing on heel and then toe takes place on two different beats: Ba-dump. You'll never hear this rhythm in tango.
How are the backward steps musically for you?
I can not see how to take those steps without the toe landing first followed by heel.
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
#44
It seems fairly pointless discussing this with you . .
but . . .
Not only that in claiming to
answer his post which was about men and walking,
you write about yours as a woman. What was the
relevance in that?
Apparently you missed the part of his post (that I was replying to) that said a woman should walk exactly as he had described for a man

So in light of that rather important detail, I agree with you. It is pointless for you and I to discuss this.
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
#45
yes. I've seen a cat land on our fence..

Cats don't dance to tango music, they prefer jazz.
I've seen a cat land on it's head... but not while dancing tango... that's usually more of a hip-hop thing.

My cats have been trying for years to master the difference between sacadas and paradas. Their inability to either sacada my trailing foot rather than my leading one, or get to the correct placement in time for a parada of my leading foot, usually results in me tripping over them. I've given up on them every learning these complex moves
 

LKSO

Active Member
#46
How are the backward steps musically for you?
I can not see how to take those steps without the toe landing first followed by heel.
Mechanically, stepping backward allows for the toe to roll onto the heel. There is only one impact and energy transfer (if the knees are straight) when the toe lands first so there isn't a ka-plunk as there is stepping forward, heel-toe.
 

LadyLeader

Active Member
#47
I get a feeling that the forward walk plunk is created by an extra big foot without control, otherwise there is a kind of rolling movement when the weight is transfered.
If there is not control /strength in the backward step it will be ka-fall when the partner is falling backwards on the low heel.
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
#48
I get a feeling that the forward walk plunk is created by an extra big foot without control, otherwise there is a kind of rolling movement when the weight is transfered.
If there is not control /strength in the backward step it will be ka-fall when the partner is falling backwards on the low heel.
With respect to leading, sometimes when a person insists "toe / heel / whole foot / etc." is the only way, it's because they never learned how to do it well any other way.

It really can be done well in a variety of ways, so if you have a preference, just go with it.
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
#49
I've seen a cat land on it's head... but not while dancing tango... that's usually more of a hip-hop thing.

My cats have been trying for years to master the difference between sacadas and paradas. Their inability to either sacada my trailing foot rather than my leading one, or get to the correct placement in time for a parada of my leading foot, usually results in me tripping over them. I've given up on them every learning these complex moves
Yeah, the cool cats tend to be more into hip hop than tango.
 

madmaximus

Well-Known Member
#51
Heel leads, toe leads, ball-flats, releves, eleves, compressions, etc., are very seldom a question of choice nor style, but rather the result of an intentional FUNCTION OR MOVEMENT that needs to be accomplished.

Thus the decision of which part of the foot should land first must be made a matter of logical extrapolation rather than misinformed conjecture.

In short, putting heel lead decisions BEFORE the purpose of the movement is like putting your shoes on before your socks---it can be done, but it won't look good nor will it function very well.







m
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#53
I've seen a cat land on it's head... but not while dancing tango... that's usually more of a hip-hop thing.

My cats have been trying for years to master the difference between sacadas and paradas. Their inability to either sacada my trailing foot rather than my leading one, or get to the correct placement in time for a parada of my leading foot, usually results in me tripping over them. I've given up on them every learning these complex moves
:D classic!
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#54
Heel leads, toe leads, ball-flats, releves, eleves, compressions, etc., are very seldom a question of choice nor style, but rather the result of an intentional FUNCTION OR MOVEMENT that needs to be accomplished.

Thus the decision of which part of the foot should land first must be made a matter of logical extrapolation rather than misinformed conjecture.

In short, putting heel lead decisions BEFORE the purpose of the movement is like putting your shoes on before your socks---it can be done, but it won't look good nor will it function very well.

m
superman tells is like it is!
 

LKSO

Active Member
#56
With respect to leading, sometimes when a person insists "toe / heel / whole foot / etc." is the only way, it's because they never learned how to do it well any other way.

It really can be done well in a variety of ways, so if you have a preference, just go with it.
I have to disagree. There is usually one way that provides the best stability, maneuverability, balance, and energy savings. You can figure this out if you spend an inordinate amount of time socially dancing and investigative practicing. This practice will lead you to try many different ways to do the same thing including heel-toe, toe-heel, and flat.

However, you can keep on doing something just because you feel like it even if it isn't very effective. It's also possible that you don't have time or simply don't want to engage in investigative practice.
 

LKSO

Active Member
#57
Mechanically, stepping backward allows for the toe to roll onto the heel. There is only one impact and energy transfer (if the knees are straight) when the toe lands first so there isn't a ka-plunk as there is stepping forward, heel-toe.
I'm wrong here ^. The energy transfer occurs when the heel contacts the floor in a backward step. Thus, the heel strikes on the beat, not the toe.
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
#58
Not this:
With respect to leading, sometimes when a person insists "toe / heel / whole foot / etc." is the only way, it's because they never learned how to do it well any other way.

It really can be done well in a variety of ways, so if you have a preference, just go with it.
But this:

Heel leads, toe leads, ball-flats, releves, eleves, compressions, etc., are very seldom a question of choice nor style, but rather the result of an intentional FUNCTION OR MOVEMENT that needs to be accomplished.

Thus the decision of which part of the foot should land first must be made a matter of logical extrapolation rather than misinformed conjecture.

In short, putting heel lead decisions BEFORE the purpose of the movement is like putting your shoes on before your socks---it can be done, but it won't look good nor will it function very well.
Leading from the chest results in you being slightly tilted forward and
needing to walk "into" the floor, the foot landing flat.

Being upright usually requires an initial push from the floor to move,
maybe a larger step and then heel strike/lead results.
It depends how you want, can, or have been taught to dance.

The overriding point is you can try these things, experiment
and work on them. Tango often starts only once teaching stops.
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
#59
I'm wrong here ^. The energy transfer occurs when the heel contacts the floor in a backward step. Thus, the heel strikes on the beat, not the toe.
Well I think you were right in the first place.

Ignoring the (wrong?) concept of energy transfer, the beat is always
naturally marked by a foot landing whether it be a heel strike
or flat foot landing walking forwards or a ball of the foot landing
when walking backwards. The idea of walking backwards and landing
the foot ahead of the beat in order for the heel to land on the beat
seems to be an impractical goal. In any case, the heel does not strike
the floor when walking backwards (man or woman), the sole does.
 

Ampster

Active Member
#60
I can't get a straight answer when it comes to whether or not the man should take toe leads on every step. I've heard some say that he should just take normal walking steps (heel, toe) footwork going forward. I've heard others say that he should be pioised slightly forward taking toe leads with every step. Can you guys help me sort this out?
IMHO, the answer is simple. It's whatever works for YOU, the leader.

Heel, Ball, flat...blah, blah... It doesn't matter, for as long as your leading becomes crystal clear, smooth, safe, and beautiful (on any surface, and in any type of shoe) for the benefit of your partner.
 

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