Weirdo radar?

twnkltoz

Well-Known Member
I think what stash and dbk were getting at is what I admittedly jumped in grenade style...

The idea of a 5 minute spiel to new attendees of what is and isn't okay is a decent start, but that must go along with a policy that complaints will be handled and people feeling that they will be listened to.

My biggest challenge in this thread was the two pages that focused almost exclusively on pulling aside new women to train them, or give women social dance etiquette, or getting veteran women to watch out for others or how women should send the right signal for help. It took two pages for someone to first mention, "actually, everyone should be made aware of what is and is not okay and what will and won't be tolerated." Dbk' example of hr at a business is what I'm thinking too. one of the best first steps is a clear policy of what won't be tolerated. I'm actually amazed more studios don't have a harassment policy that people either see posted or have to sign. It's like business risk management 101.
We also talked about what the studio should do about it. I don't see how refusing to talk about how women can help themselves would change the fact that some men are creeps. And sure, we can tell men not to be creeps, but how often do you think that really works?
 

fascination

Site Moderator
Staff member
well precisely...I get rels point...but no one on this forum would ever dare suggest that the women are at fault for being recipients of creepiness...but to say that they need to be encouraged to be strong enough to discourage creeps and to report on behalf of other women is a totally different matter...at at least for myself, I noted the caveat that some women are too vulnerable to do that and may need help with these things.....but there are really only a few ways to stop a jerk....you can tell them to stop, you can have someone else tell them to stop, and if those fail, you can actively seek out someone with power to remove them....or you can remove yourself....may not be fair, but my experiences with jerks is that they don't change....hence the term
 
I suppose an anonymous note might be effective. I was thinking maybe I could get a disposable email address and send the studio a message just letting him know that I have suspicions that I cannot confirm but tell them the name of the person and maybe they will keep an eye out. Does that sound weird to do something like that?
 
Don't the ladies talk among themselves? Or do the ladies expect they will get no sympathy even in their own gender?
Ha, that's funny. My experience as a young, attractive woman is that when I was harassed and subsequently stalked by a "nice guy" predator from a group class, the older female attitude was "it's your own fault".

Then the women closed ranks around HIM, and *I* was asked not to attend classes because *I* was upsetting him. To the women in class, this older, single man (twice my age, and closer to theirs) was much more desirable to have in class than a younger woman.

Another time at a social dance, a creepy old man was video taping me and when I brought it up to the dance hostess, I was told "meh, too bad for you. It's because you're good looking so what do you expect?"

So let me try this one...

Suppose someone is well into their 50s and it seems that every time there is a girl in her 20s (which happens often) he gravitates toward her, and then you don't see the young ladies come back to the dance?
Right.
 
At the risk of sounding like a devil's advocate: I have read just about every comment on this long string Not once has anyone suggested that in many cases women might be overly sensitive.

I have actually had a few women who got disambiguated when I started a WCS dance in a typical closed position. They reacted as though I was trying to abuse them because I had the nerve to touch their hand and the back of their shoulder blade; and even more egregious I had the gall to move within 12" of their sacred body. Sheesh! It kind of makes me wonder if these women ever figured out that "partner dancing" means that men and women will come into physical contact with each other.

While I have no doubt that an occasional perv wanders into a studio, the women at the ones I dance at won't put up with him for long. There is an enforcement network that keeps us guys very well behaved. The pervs quickly get bored because nobody will dance with them so they leave. And if that doesn't work they will be promptly escorted out by the studio owners. Problem solved!
 
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stash

Well-Known Member
At the risk of sounding like a devil's advocate: I have read just about every comment on this long string Not once has anyone suggested that in many cases women might be overly sensitive.

I have actually had a few women who got disambiguated when I started a WCS dance in a typical closed position. They reacted as though I was trying to abuse them because I had the nerve to touch their hand and the back of their shoulder blade; and even more egregious I had the gall to move within 12" of their sacred body. Sheesh! It kind of makes me wonder if these women ever figured out that "partner dancing" means that men and women will come into physical contact with each other.

While I have no doubt that an occasional perv wanders into a studio, the women at the ones I dance at won't put up with him for long. There is an enforcement network that keeps us guys very well behaved. The pervs quickly get bored because nobody will dance with them so they leave. And if that doesn't work they will be promptly escorted out by the studio owners. Problem solved!
I believe most of us are not overly sensitive. And by stating that you are sweeping an entire issue under the rug. Smaller communities have an easier time weeding out pervs just for the reason it's a much tighter knit community. In larger communities, where not everyone knows everyone, weeding out the bad eggs can prove to be a lot more difficult.

I think most women in partner dancing know that partner dancing involves touching, and again suggesting otherwise is pretty ignorant about the point of this conversation. Touching a woman does not make you creepy. But how you touch her, how you look at her, how you talk to her, can send off vibes. And sure, we can read those vibes wrong sometimes, but we shouldn't be blamed for being uncomfortable when someone touches us inappropriate when it clearly wasn't an accident, or continues to harass us.

This reasoning from men is why more women don't stand up for themselves. Because if our word can't be trusted, why bother. Sure maybe a few women overreact. But enough women in this thread, including myself, have been put in situations at socials where we feel uncomfortable, and some women quit because of this issue. It is a real problem. And blaming US for being "OVERLY SENSITIVE" discounts any of our experiences that are real.
 

twnkltoz

Well-Known Member
At the risk of sounding like a devil's advocate: I have read just about every comment on this long string Not once has anyone suggested that in many cases women might be overly sensitive.

I have actually had a few women who got disambiguated when I started a WCS dance in a typical closed position. They reacted as though I was trying to abuse them because I had the nerve to touch their hand and the back of their shoulder blade; and even more egregious I had the gall to move within 12" of their sacred body. Sheesh! It kind of makes me wonder if these women ever figured out that "partner dancing" means that men and women will come into physical contact with each other.

While I have no doubt that an occasional perv wanders into a studio, the women at the ones I dance at won't put up with him for long. There is an enforcement network that keeps us guys very well behaved. The pervs quickly get bored because nobody will dance with them so they leave. And if that doesn't work they will be promptly escorted out by the studio owners. Problem solved
Overly sensitive? We get to decide what we're comfortable with, not you. Women who have been dancing any length of time know about closed position. So the women in your scenario are either very new to dance and haven't learned it yet, or you are somehow making them uncomfortable and they don't want to get that close to you.
 

JudeMorrigan

Well-Known Member
Also, it's the follow that gets to set the distance.
I've heard this idea batted around a few times on the board, and I have a very slight disagreement. It was explained differently to me back when I was starting. As I was taught, the lead sets their minimum distance and then the follow sets a distance that's no closer than the lead's invitation. That is, if I were dancing with you, I'd invite you in in a way that would say "you're welcome to a full body-contact frame if you want one". There are other ladies I'd very much prefer to keep at arms length, and I invite them in differently.

Basically, I consider it both partners' responsibility to make sure they aren't getting closer than the other finds comfortable.

(Of course, I fully imagine that guys who don't respect boundaries are a worse issue due to the combination of physiological and societal factors. But ladies who don't aren't great either.)
 

FancyFeet

Well-Known Member
I've heard this idea batted around a few times on the board, and I have a very slight disagreement. It was explained differently to me back when I was starting. As I was taught, the lead sets their minimum distance and then the follow sets a distance that's no closer than the lead's invitation. That is, if I were dancing with you, I'd invite you in in a way that would say "you're welcome to a full body-contact frame if you want one". There are other ladies I'd very much prefer to keep at arms length, and I invite them in differently.

Basically, I consider it both partners' responsibility to make sure they aren't getting closer than the other finds comfortable.
True. Blame my lack of specificity on insufficient caffeine for a Monday morning.

(And awwww, now I feel special!)
 

fascination

Site Moderator
Staff member
I have ballroom danced for over 10 years and never had a man touch my hair....shrug...and if I had a man (not my instructor or husband)decide how far away from him I was going to dance, unless it was the farthest of all the options, we would have a problem. I simply wouldn't stick around long enough to find out whether or not he was a perv.....
 

fascination

Site Moderator
Staff member
lastly, and perhaps most importantly, what some men may not get...but SHOULD.... is that almost every woman has had a man who maybe at first seemed nice enough, then attempted to get inappropriate with them, or who persisted far beyond when he should have, or was frightening in some way....so try not to take it so personally when a woman reacts fearfully....try to respect it....because you have no idea what they have been through
 

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