What the?

fascination

Site Moderator
Staff member
#61
and you got a number of answers ...which you rejected...for whatever reason....you don't have to agree with someone, but, unless omniscent, you can't really know how well they do or don't dance/understand your genre...when you ask a question on a public forum, particularly one to which you are new and which you know is heavily populated by another type of dancer, you can't expect unanimous agreement, and shouldn't, imo, dismiss what you are hearing solely on the basis of many of those opinions coming from persons whose sole experience with dance is not reserved to salsa...many folks here have acknowledged the validity of the differences, and the validity of elements of your perspective as they should....it really isn't terribly courteous to ask folks a question knowing who they are and then tell them that they couldn't possibly know as much as you do and so their opinion isn't right....I mean, if you only want the opinion of other salsa specialists you are in the wrong place...here you are going to get a few of those...but you are also going to get a bunch of ballroom dancers who also salsa...if you want to limit your question to a certain population, you need to state that at the outset....imv
 

fascination

Site Moderator
Staff member
#62
I hope it is only a handful of people but unfortunately I think its a lot more. I grew up with mambo so I dont every remember a time not loving it. My mom danced with Tito Puente at the palladium in NYC, my family is latin, it is a part of life not a hobby, so it was a very alien concept for me...dancing and not enjoying the music.
The problem I have seen over the past years in the salsa scene is that the dancing has become more mechanical, and for a musical dancer, yes, that is problematic. The focus has shifted to the dance not the music, as it was in the past. I dont think there is much to be done about it. More music education in class I suppose.
I would never tell someone not to dance. I was just stating that I dont get it. If you want to dance to music you dont enjoy, do it. What ever floats your boat.
good...this is a step in the right direction, imv....in nearly every art there is a technical element and an expressive element...lovers of that art are dedicated enough to respect and hone both and be the better for it...and when one is lacking to focus on the other....people are always at differing spaces in their journey...I had a friend that was in the "all art, all lead and follow camo for a very long time...until one day her teacher made it clear that, to get better the focus was going to have more on technique for a while...so that the art could get better....there is a balance....no one wants to see a mechanical dancer with no soul, no one wants to see a wet hot mess who thinks she's really awesome because she feels it...
 
#63
Yeah I was interested to see how many people were out there dancing to music they dont enjoy. And the replies are great, I dont have to agree with them, and you dont have to agree with me. I wasnt looking for anyone to agree with me...I know plently of dancers who are of the same belief, thats why it surprised me to hear when someone said they danced salsa but didnt like the music...
 
#64
When I first posted this question I stated that I had made a mistake by posting it on this forum. But people kept replying and then it was moved here to the salsa section. I even suggested that it be removed. I am sorry if there are some that feel offended, or that I was not courteous. Was not my intention.
No matter how many people give their reasons for choosing to dance to a genre of music they do not enjoy I will not agree or understand it. And I do believe it affects ones dancing...at least in salsa. Salsa is not about choreography or routines...it is about the music, interpretation of the music and improv. If you are just doing the steps and patterns that is just one part of it and the dance will be lacking. Can it be done? Sure...There are many who dance mechanically... I dance with lots of guys who are mechanical dancers and while technically they are great there is something missing. And I believe it is the connection to the music. Maybe they don't like the music..hmm, Next time I get a mechanical dancer I will ask him.
There is a true difference dancing with someone who is in the music, gives freedom for improv during the right time in the song,as well as having good technique, than a guy just running through his repertoire of patterns. And at the heart of the difference is connection to the music...A guy just doing turn patterns one after another is not listening to what the music is saying. Lots of times I have thought while dancing ugh..this guy is not listening to the music...never occurred to me that maybe "he" actually doesn't like the music...Very interesting.

Here is an example of what my point is..Someone who doesn't love salsa could not dance with the musicality that Terry does...This is what salsa is about, it comes from within. Granted not a lot of people are at his level but without the love of the music there is no possibility to get there. And why would someone want to if they didn't love it ?! You guys can hate on me all you like...thats my story and I'm stickin to it ;)
 

IndyLady

Well-Known Member
#66
No matter how many people give their reasons for choosing to dance to a genre of music they do not enjoy I will not agree or understand it.
OK. I guess I'm still not seeing why you started the discussion then, unless you were just looking for people to sympathize with you, which unfortunately was not the bulk of the replies (even very few "I know, right?" folks in the salsa section of the forum). I don't understand why people eat feta cheese (yuck) but I figure they have their reasons and I don't feel compelled to start threads on discussion forums about the topic.

dance with lots of guys who are mechanical dancers and while technically they are great there is something missing. And I believe it is the connection to the music. Maybe they don't like the music..hmm, Next time I get a mechanical dancer I will ask him.
So how does that conversation go... "Hey, you're a really mechanical dancer - do you not like the music?" I hope you report back to us with your findings...

One question, one comment:
1. Were those performances or part of normal social dancing? There were an awful lot of people just standing around watching.
2. The bulk of the dancing was done solo (they were not in frame or literally physically connected) - most ballroom is done almost entirely in frame, which precludes a lot of the solo work like what is in your video. It's a lot more challenging to express yourself to the music when you're also trying to lead/follow.
 

Rhythmdancer

Well-Known Member
#67
Here is an example of what my point is..Someone who doesn't love salsa could not dance with the musicality that Terry does...
That's not true. If you are musically inclined, it doesn't matter what song you're dancing too, you can't turn it off once you got it. There are times I want to turn musicality off to show someone the difference between having it and not having it and no matter how hard I try, I can never really eliminate it.
 

Mr 4 styles

Well-Known Member
#68
i see your point a bit better cali but salsa is not improvised it is still lead and follow... except in shines which are still often learned and executed

few partner dancers study their music like the westies...but it is from my WCS experience that i learned to listen to all music styles to which i dance with the same ear. Even in american smooth ill add measures to a routine which my pro using visual leads if the music calls for it. usually only in practice tho
 

Mr 4 styles

Well-Known Member
#69
thirty one second without a lead!!! that is just grooving to the music until you touch her hand.. heck as a popper we can interpret music as well.. that is being a soloist however


is it cool !! heck yeah especially on the ladies .....but i can show plenty of pre partnering movements as intros in ballroom too
 

Jag75

Active Member
#70
IndyLady the dance by Terry is not a performance but is purely social dancing. The reason for all the people standing around is that he is one of the top dancers and amazing to watch in real life.

In NY style salsa it's normal to solo through a part of the dance, however this is generally done less predominantly. Normally more than 80% of the dance is partnerwork.
 

tangotime

Well-Known Member
#72
One question, one comment:
1. Were those performances or part of normal social dancing? There were an awful lot of people just standing around watching.

.

You are , in all probability, not aware that, it used to be quite common ( way back when ) that , impromptu " circles " would suddenly form around a couple, and watch. Check some of the old Palladium vids .

And, the better know Pros who dance socially, do tend to create the same situation.
 

tangotime

Well-Known Member
#73
2. The bulk of the dancing was done solo (they were not in frame or literally physically connected) - most ballroom is done almost entirely in frame, which precludes a lot of the solo work like what is in your video. It's a lot more challenging to express yourself to the music when you're also trying to lead/follow.


You apparently do not know that Cali also has danced BR style.

And, again, there are numerous vids showing partner work . And as "teachers ", we both are more than aware of the inherent problems in a closed/close position, in dance .

Last.. you seem to have missed the point of the vid.. it was to show "sabor ". and do you not realise that, ALL latin dance came from solo positions, and then were converted into partnership.

Converting that "energy " back into closed/close position , is not always understood, and requires immense skill AND understanding the music.

The majority of dancers in the salsa genre do not know that, pretty much all of the songs are telling a story. Latinos do often respond differently to the lyrics, as well as the music. Some of the music may sound happy and upbeat whilst the opposite may be true.

The melancholy sound of Waltz as opposed to Q/step , enables us to respond accordingly ( or should ! ) .
 

tangotime

Well-Known Member
#74
IndyLady the dance by Terry is not a performance but is purely social dancing. The reason for all the people standing around is that he is one of the top dancers and amazing to watch in real life.

In NY style salsa it's normal to solo through a part of the dance, however this is generally done less predominantly. Normally more than 80% of the dance is partnerwork.

Personally, I don't like his style.. It always seems to me that, he IS performing .( I'm not the only one who thinks this, on SF ) .
 

IndyLady

Well-Known Member
#76
You are , in all probability, not aware that, it used to be quite common ( way back when ) that , impromptu " circles " would suddenly form around a couple, and watch. Check some of the old Palladium vids.
I'm simply noting what I observed in the videos that Cali posted as supporting evidence for the arguments she is making... if you want me to see other videos proving a different point, feel free to post them but I don't plan to go searching for them myself.

IndyLady the dance by Terry is not a performance but is purely social dancing. The reason for all the people standing around is that he is one of the top dancers and amazing to watch in real life.
So it appears that this is the equivalent of me posting a video of Riccardo and Yulia and asking why more ballroom dancers don't dance like that... ?

In NY style salsa it's normal to solo through a part of the dance, however this is generally done less predominantly. Normally more than 80% of the dance is partnerwork.
That's what I figured. But the vast majority of the content in those videos was solo... it would have been more convincing to see partner work that demonstrates "feeling the music" or "sabor" or whatever terminology you fancy.


Also, another question... would you say the women in those videos are really feeling the music too?
 

tangotime

Well-Known Member
#77
That's what I figured. But the vast majority of the content in those videos was solo... it would have been more convincing to see partner work that demonstrates "feeling the music" or "sabor" or whatever terminology you fancy.


Also, another question... would you say the women in those videos are really feeling the music too?
Yep.. " shines " are very popular with many dancers ( this dates back from old Mambo and indigenous roots ).. I'm not overly keen on too much shine position, but I do appreciate its meaning ( Call and response ).

As to Sabor, its somewhat subjective. May I suggest you take a look at Tito Ortos who, in my opinion, is one of the best ex. when it come to pure partnership inter mixed with "shine " .
 

IndyLady

Well-Known Member
#78
May I suggest you take a look at Tito Ortos who, in my opinion, is one of the best ex. when it come to pure partnership inter mixed with "shine " .
You may suggest whatever you like. As I already stated, though, I do not plan to go searching for videos... if you want me to watch something that proves your point, it is up to you to post it here. :)
 

Mr 4 styles

Well-Known Member
#79
We call the circles cyphers in the urban dance ( popping) community and it's a chance to demonstrate as well as have friendly battles and I have danced social salsa both with shines and without for a very long time . Extended un partnered movement in a predominantly partner dance structure is cool to a point and at 31 seconds you are well past that point but we are off topic ( as usual for us lol )
 

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