Who hijacked the Two Step?

#61
I like justvinnie's description.

As far as "QQSS forever" as taught in beginning classes intermediate 2-Step also has rythym changes such as QQQQ or QQSQQS. My partner likes to do double spins on QQQQ and when I lead those turns for others they often do the turns as QQSS so I have a 50% chance of ending up on the wrong foot! But it is still fun.

Hey Steve, we will be coming thru Portland in early April, so I'll send you an email so we can meet at Bushwhackers.
 

kayak

Active Member
#62
Ya know, I had that same problem. Then someone taught me to accelerate my lead at the end of the first chaine' going into the second. That way, the lady really only has the option of doing QQQQ. It seems to work pretty well for me now.
 

Steve Pastor

Moderator
Staff member
#63
Chances are VERY good that if you are there on a Thursday or Saturday, I'll be there. (I think those are the best nights.) I could even be talked into going out there another night to meet someone from out of town.
 

Steve Pastor

Moderator
Staff member
#64
OK guys. Women ALWAYS end up on the wrong foot, or don;t know if they are doing a quick or a slow, when they do that stuff. It annoys the heck out of me.
One of the guys even told one of the women "you always do two turns when a guy leads a turn at Bushwhackers".
So, chuck, do YOU end up on the wrong foot, or does she?
And what about you kayak? Any wrong foot problems?

I always tell my partners to stay with qqs s and we can do ANY number of turns, spins, windows, just about anything and not get messed up.

Are you guys staying with qqs s?

???
 

kayak

Active Member
#65
I think if we as a couple are getting our feet mismatched, it is usually the guy whose lead ends up off. I was taught there are certain turns that can be done on QQ rhythms and other turns that can be done on S rhythms. With each beat, I control whether the lady is doing a S or a Q by my lead.

So taking just two different type of turns. Chaine's are done on the QQ and Pivot turns on on the S.

If our goal was three traveling spins out of promenade, it is tough to stick with QQSS and make it workout. The lady would have to do chaine', pivot, pivot, chaine', SS. So the guy's arm lead has to be fast loop, slow half loop, slow half loop, fast loop. Plus, pivot turns require a momentum change. So our three traveling spins would have a hickup right in the middle as we change from chaine' to pivot and back.

I think a better plan is to lead the three traveling spins as QQ QQ QQ SS. That way, we are just leading three chaine's. That makes our lead more manageable. We just have three fast loops. To make sure she doesn't revert to a S after each loop, we accellerate the last third of the loop. That way, there is no option of doing a S. Our job as leaders is to just mark the time with our footwork and make sure we don't also revert to a S as our brains are trying to think that fast.
 

Steve Pastor

Moderator
Staff member
#66
Yikes! Had to look that one up!
http://www.ehow.com/how_2249187_perform-chaine-turn-dance-move.html

I try to match the lead with the step: a fast one if she will be turing on a quick, a slower one if she will be turning on the slow.
If I get that dear in the headlights look, I will sometimes do the turn or turns myself just to show that I'm not asking them to do anything that can't be done.
I have, though, what to some women is a nasty habit of not leading what they think I'm going to lead.
I note that with your QQ QQ QQ S S
LR LR LR L R
if I do QQ S S QQ S not altering my steps
LR L R LR L
we are indeed on opposite feet.
I kinda feel like if she took an extra step to do an extra spin that wasn't led, and ended up on the wrong foot, she should fix it. And, if my hand is up and acring to lead a turn, she can easily do that extra spin if she wants to.
 

kayak

Active Member
#67
Yikes! Had to look that one up!
Yea, chaine's are kind of a 2-step staple turn. The one difference is their description is ballet oriented. So they suggest releve', but we usually have to do it in plei' instead. Lowering instead or rising allows the lady to stay balanced doing the fast 2-step turns. Rising gives the floating look in smooth dances like waltz, but also works better at the slower dance speeds.

...I note that with your QQ QQ QQ S S
LR LR LR L R
if I do QQ S S QQ S not altering my steps
LR L R LR L
we are indeed on opposite feet.
I kinda feel like if she took an extra step to do an extra spin that wasn't led, and ended up on the wrong foot, she should fix it. And, if my hand is up and acring to lead a turn, she can easily do that extra spin if she wants to.
The trick here is if I lead QQ QQ, I myself have to step QQ QQ. I have to make sure I don't revert to QQ S or we end up with opposit feet.

There isn't enough time in a 160 bpm dance to have the lady guessing if I want her to do an extra spin. My lead should dictate that we are still turning or that we are going back to promenade/frame.

Yea, sometimes one of us makes a mistake and we end up opposit feet. It doesn't really matter which of us made the mistake. As the leader, I figure it is my job to lead us out of the mess. So by leading with my center and stepping right through her, her natural choice is to rematch my footwork. To help make it clear which foot she should step back on, I sometime dance that side forward a couple inches.

Thus, if I move towards her with my whole center, step with my left foot, and present my left shoulder forward just a little, the lady has three hints that I want her to step back with her right foot. Then, we are matched back up :)
 

Steve Pastor

Moderator
Staff member
#68
Someone told me recently that I am a man of the people, and when I read, regarding the waltz, "The vigorous peasant dancer, following an instinctive knowledge of the weight of fall, untilizes his surplus energy to press all his strength into the proper beat of the measure, thus intensifying his personal enjoyment in dancing", I can relate. Quote from "The Birth of the Waltz". Nettl, Paul. in Dance Index vol 5, no. 9. 1946 New York: Dance Index-Ballet Caravan, Inc. page 211.

I'm glad you have a way of fixing this. Actually, I find that women are the most confused when I am in a "side by side", "shoulder hold", "cape", or varsouviana position. We do that a lot here in Portland, unlike in Texas, and maybe where you are. I have noticed that they straighten themselves out faster if I put them in front of me and and I'm walking right at them.
I could be more accomodating to the women who don't get it on their own, just like I could not dance in time to the music if it's too fast or too slow for them.
You know, there are lots of those guys around, and they are often looking for partners. And they dance a lot more than me some nights.
I'll tuck your method in my back pocket, but....
 

kayak

Active Member
#69
No worries, just give it a shot sometime. We dance in sweetheart and cape lots. If I match all the steps I am asking the lady to dance, we almost always end up on the right foot together.

The nice thing about dancing all the promenade side by side patterns is us guys can always apply a little "advanced men's footwork" to seamlessly fix mistakes. It doesn't matter which partner missed. Just hesitate one step and the two of us are matched back up.
 
#70
I want to make sure I understand where you are coming from kayak, may I ask a few questions?

What do you consider basic timing? Using numbers, as I believe you've already explained it with rhythm.
 

kayak

Active Member
#71
I want to make sure I understand where you are coming from kayak, may I ask a few questions?

What do you consider basic timing? Using numbers, as I believe you've already explained it with rhythm.
Hi Lrn2dnc, I am not quite sure I am following your questions since the basic rhythm of QQSS creates a rolling count? If we started dancing on the first beat of a measure, I would count the basic pattern as 1,2,3 5 7,8,1 3 5,6,7 1 etc. I used a space as a hold. Is that kind of what you were asking?

If I was leading the three turns example, I would both dance and lead it 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 1. A chaine' take two beats.
 
#72
Hi Lrn2dnc, I am not quite sure I am following your questions since the basic rhythm of QQSS creates a rolling count? If we started dancing on the first beat of a measure, I would count the basic pattern as 1,2,3 5 7,8,1 3 5,6,7 1 etc. I used a space as a hold. Is that kind of what you were asking?
No you answered exactly what I was asking. And then some :)
So that hold, is a non weight change?
To clarify those first 4 steps:
You would be stepping on the 1, stepping on the 2, stepping on the 3, holding for the count of 4, stepping on the 5, holding for the count of 6?
 
#74
Yep exactly! The S takes two beats, but the step on to it is on the first beat and then there is the hold.
So all the steps arrive at the same speed, but two of them depart later?
If I counted using Quick's for descriptive speed purposes, I could say it as Q,Q,QHold,QHold?
 
#76
Here's what I learned:
The Foxtrot (walk-walk-side-close/slow-slow-quick-quick) is the forerunner of the Two-Step.
There's two basic types of Two-Step, Progressive and 'Texas'.
Progressive is just walks ahead (quick-quick-slow-slow), Texas, being danced to (even) slower music, has a side-together pattern for the slows, making you kind of 'sway'.

Now, how exactly this translates will depend greatly on the type of environment the OP is referring to.
If you're talking about what I call the 'real world' - like a night club or other 'uncontrolled' environment, all bets are off and how well the lady/follow does will depend a great deal on how 'determined' (ahem...) your lead is.
 

Steve Pastor

Moderator
Staff member
#77
Hi, Wolfgang.
Here's some stuff I found in various books...

As with other country/western dances, there are different versions of two step. Even the same dance may go by different names depending on the area of the U.S., and even in the particular dance hall. There may be no one "correct" way to do a particular dance.
The Official Guide to Country Dance Steps. by Tony Leisner. 1980. Quality Books, Inc. page 64. ISBN 0-89009-331-8

The Texas Two Step includes three steps: a quick step, a quick step, and then a slow step.
Dance Across Texas By Betty Casey 1985 University of Texas Press page 111. ISBN:029271551X

The lead steps forward on his left foot, lifting his right heel for the first step, which is the first quick step. Although three steps are taken the dancer only progresses two steps.
Dance Across Texas By Betty Casey 1985 University of Texas Press pages 16, 67 ISBN:029271551X

Many sites, however, define the dance as having four steps, quick quick slow, slow.[http://www.janbrett.com/piggybacks/step.htm]

Then of course there are the triple twos.

The two-step is a step found in many folk dances, and in various other dances. It seems to take its name from the 19th century dance related to the Polka.
A two-step consists of two steps in approximately the same direction onto the same foot, separated by a closing step with the other foot.
No source

So, from foxtrot or not? I'm thinking no one knows for sure.
 

kayak

Active Member
#78
Hi Wolfgang,
I actually have never watched anyone that closes on the slows. I do see the older closing quicks style from time to time. Still, most have converted to the forward walks.

As Lrn2dnc helped emphasis recently, the big challenge is making the slow slow obvious by dancing it as a quick hold quick hold. Foxtrot has an interesting difference in that the quicks also have rise that distinguish those steps from the slows.
 
#80
Hi G&B. I am beginning to think that the actual "two step" is taught in various steps; depending on the part of the country you live in. My two step is and always will be the Quick-Quick, Slow..Slow method. But the only thing is that the first two steps are actually "walking" and the last are more of a longer, sliding step. Last week I attended a dance where one man was absolutely "gliding" across the floor; using the (triple) step....his head stayed at the same level ALL NIGHT. He was a good, strong lead and the both of them were sensational to watch. The triple is my favorite dance and my dance partner moved away. We have NO Country Western clubs here to dance, so I just thought I'd join this forum to possibly meet new dancers and see if anyone is from my home area....West Monroe, LA. Dancing is a passion of mine, and I love CW dancing the best...but next is the East Coast Swing. I hope to learn a lot from just reading these forums, and so far I have. Happy Dancing ! Jingleboots
 

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