Social Promotions?

Just curious, ballroom folks What makes you bronze, silver or gold?

I ask because at my former dance studio, each fifty lessons corresponded to roughly half a level -- 50 lessons to get through bronze I, another fifty to get through Bronze II, and so on. And every six months, the studio would hold a graduation/medal ball, and present its students with cetificates of completion for whatever level. If you had taken 50 lessons in six months, you automatically were promoted to the next level, regardless of the quality of your dancing. I made it through silver 3 that way, before I gave up on that studio altogether.

At my new studio, I'm still working on bronze material, which is a lot less flashy, and to be honest, can be quite boring sometime. But I'm still working on perfecting the technique. *shrug* What can I say?

Anyway, the question is this. What do you think the criteria for promotion should be? Materical covered? Hours spent? Quality of technique? SOme combination?

I'm actually thinking of joining a dance studio belonging, to a Mr. Roger M. Christian, where there have the medal system and so it's a timely topic for me. I believe that the criteria should be the material covered (that is a certain amount of material must be covered for each level) and technique (i.e ability to execute the material covered to a certain level).

I'm with Sagitta...anything else is only a mark of longevity and would be like handing out academic degrees based on years college/university regardless of accomplishment and mastery, or even comprehension! :shock:

I agree. But, in the defense of that studio, I think the graduations are used as a way to keep students motivated. Does that make it any better? What do you think?

pygmalion said:

Just curious, ballrom folks What makes you bronze, silver or gold?

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Not how many lessons you've taken, how much you've paid for or anything like that.

What makes you a certain level is the proficiency you've attained in whatever standard you are attempting.

I've seen "Gold" level dancers who have the sloppiest technique ever, yet are considered "Gold" just because they know the patterns.

I've seen "Bronze" level dancers who have been there for years, but are better dancers than the above mentioned "Gold" dancers. :roll:

I'm not sure I even like the terms bronze, silver, et al. I think in some cases poor dancers can get an overinflated sense of how good they are and some very good dancers can be held back because they haven't learned every *nuance* of the dances they are studying.

Currently, my hubby and I are dancing Open International Standard material. We started with our coach almost 4.5 years ago. We made him start us out in closed syllabus material and work us through the ISTD book until *he* thought we were ready to progress to more advanced material. The level name didn't mean anything to us if we didn't have a proficient handle on what we were studying. That said, there are still "basic" things we deal with and correct all the time. But even the top level pros deal with the "little" stuff too. If they say they don't have to work on things to get better, they are lying. :cry:

As I told our coach this week - if we all could attain perfection, there would be no need of coaches.

IMNSHO, I think that the distinction between social and competitive dance is more relevant than any "medal" distinction. Social dancing implies a more relaxed atmosphere than competition, and really doesn't need to be broken down by how many steps you've learned. Besides, I like Beginner, Intermediate & Advanced (probably since I've got a ballet/tap/jazz background) since they are more standard in the "other" dance industries. Also, "medal" titles make me think of sports and competition and social dancing isn't competitive (overtly).

I certainly agree that moving from one level to another should be determined by one's level of proficiency, or I wouldn't faithfully be working on bronze with my coach, a year and a half after I'd "completed" bronze at my former studio. 8)

And, while I don't want to turn this into another franchise studio rant, I need to point out that studios often sell students lessons by level i.e."selling silver", etc. I'm sure that figures into the way people are promoted.

pygmalion said:

I think the graduations are used as a way to keep students motivated. Does that make it any better? What do you think?

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No, this doesn't make it any better. That's like me telling one of my students they earned an A when they're producing C work. Sure, maybe this will motivate them in the short term, but, in the long run, it is only setting them up for failure. Such tactics are selfish and underhanded by any accounting.

pygmalion said:

And, while I don't want to turn this into another franchise studio rant, I need to point out that studios often sell students lessons by level i.e."selling silver", etc. I'm sure that figures into the way people are promoted.

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Oh yeah! I was at a franchised studio in Atlanta and had a "discussion" with a teacher as to why a student who started after I did and had no dance background or rhythm whatsoever was being taught more than I was even though I had been there longer and was already a seasoned dancer. The reply: "He paid for more [lessons] than you. He paid for [X Level] and you only paid for [Y level]." Needless to say, that really steamed my clams. Especially since they had already gotten quite a bit of money from me and I was facing bankruptcy due to divorce/bills/etc. Made me MADder than hades I can tell you.

In fact, shortly before this, I was doing a "showcase rouitine" and they were stretching the number of lessons out to "learn" it. I told my teacher that I was capable of learning it in a much faster time frame and that if *he* couldn't learn it fast enough, then I wasn't doing it. This came about shortly after our second coaching session with a high mucky-muck coach in their system who had to keep correcting my teacher during the session I was not happy about paying for *his* education while I had to wait around and got nothing out of it. It was bad enough I had to pay for "extra lessons", but paying the coach too was not making me a happy girl.

Since I compete on a collegiate ballroom team, we typically determine what level we are by using the official USABDA guidelines for competitive classifications, which uses the point system. This is explained in further detail in the official USABDA Dancesport Rulebook under article 4.5 if you care to read it: http://usabda.org/dancesport_competitors/rules-policies-bylaws/dancesport_rulebook/index.cfm.

Basically you earn "proficiency points" based on how well you place at a competition, and after you have accumulated three points you are, in theory, SUPPOSED to move up to the next level of competition. However, this is done purely on the honor system, and often I see couples who really should be dancing at silver or gold dancing bronze just so they can win It's rather unfortunate...but on the flipside, many couples just don't feel ready to move up to the next level of competition. There are couples on our team that have been dancing bronze for two years and are just now moving up to silver. And again, on the flipside, one guy on our team has been dancing for four years and has been dancing at championship level for two and a half :shock: Overall I think its a matter of personal preference...it's whether or not you feel proficient at the steps. Though most non-competitive dancers don't typically use the point system (how could they, really?), overall the idea is the same, and it's up to you whether or not you move up to the next level or not...hey, its your hard-earned money!

Oh my goodness! So many issues raised! :shock: 8) But I'm a lowly moderator, and I want the conversation to continue. So I'll save my comments until after others have a chance to comment.

ballroomboilergirl said:

Since I compete on a collegiate ballroom team, we typically determine what level we are by using the official USABDA guidelines for competitive classifications, which uses the point system. This is explained in further detail in the official USABDA Dancesport Rulebook under article 4.5 if you care to read it: http://usabda.org/dancesport_competitors/rules-policies-bylaws/dancesport_rulebook/index.cfm.

Basically you earn "proficiency points" based on how well you place at a competition, and after you have accumulated three points you are, in theory, SUPPOSED to move up to the next level of competition.

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I actually considered competing at Cornell, and still could if I wanted to, but I couldn't see myself moving from one level to another like that. Actually in my case it was the level before bronze. Isn't there a "newcomer" level, but after 6 months of dancing you are supposed to move to bronze? I was told something like that, but that was too daunting for me!! I wouldn't violate the honor system to suit my personal preferences so I just decided not do that.

That's why I prefer social dancing.

pygmallion said:

Oh my goodness! So many issues raised! But I'm a lowly moderator, and I want the conversation to continue. So I'll save my comments until after others have a chance to comment.

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A lowly moderator!! :lol: I would say that you're the epitome of what a moderator should be!!

Sagitta said:

ballroomboilergirl said:

Since I compete on a collegiate ballroom team, we typically determine what level we are by using the official USABDA guidelines for competitive classifications, which uses the point system. This is explained in further detail in the official USABDA Dancesport Rulebook under article 4.5 if you care to read it: http://usabda.org/dancesport_competitors/rules-policies-bylaws/dancesport_rulebook/index.cfm.

Basically you earn "proficiency points" based on how well you place at a competition, and after you have accumulated three points you are, in theory, SUPPOSED to move up to the next level of competition.

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I actually considered competing at Cornell, and still could if I wanted to, but I couldn't see myself moving from one level to another like that. Actually in my case it was the level before bronze. Isn't there a "newcomer" level, but after 6 months of dancing you are supposed to move to bronze? I was told something like that, but that was too daunting for me!! I wouldn't violate the honor system to suit my personal preferences so I just decided not do that.

That's why I prefer social dancing.

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You are correct, Sagitta, the lowest level that one can compete at is Newcomer, and although the guidelines for who is considered a "newcomer" vary from place to place (some say its someone who has never competed before, some say its someone who has had less than 50 hours of instruction), typically a newcomer is someone who has been dancing for less than six months.

After that six month period, regardless of how well you did in competition as a newcomer, you are supposed to move up to Bronze. Although this may seem daunting, I have found that most of the Newcomers on our team (myself included) are quite proficient at the Newcomer steps after only three or four months and are actually rather anxious to move up to Bronze and learn new, more flashy and fun steps. The Newcomer syllabus is basically the first 5-7 figures of each dance, and quite often half of those steps are simply the basic or variations on the basic, and the other steps are pretty simple, such as underarm turns and breaks. Thus, it can at times be a bit boring and restrictive dancing at Newcomer :roll:, especially when you see the people around you dancing cool steps at Bronze.

However, after the move from Newcomer to Bronze, as I said before, the lines of when to move up or stay at a certain level become a bit blurred. You're technically SUPPOSED to move up after accumulating 3 proficiency points (which usually come from placing in the finals of a particular dance), but let's say you placed 8th out of 8 places in the finals of waltz on three separate occasions, thus accumulating three proficiency points. Would you TRULY feel proficient at waltz? Personally, until I place in the top three three times, I'm not moving out of Bronze. But let's say you get first place three times. I think its then safe to say that you are fairly proficient and its time to move up.

Some couples wait to move up because they only feel proficient at one dance that may be danced as a two-part event at the next level up. For example, one couple on our team has placed in the finals of Bronze American Waltz numerous times and should be dancing at Silver. However, at the Silver level, American Waltz is often a combined event with American Tango, and in order to dance one you must also dance the other. They don't yet feel proficient at American Tango, so they remain in Bronze so that they can accumulate enough proficiency points in Tango to move up to Silver. I find that the higher up you go, the more vague it becomes to determine whether or not to move up. Often couples will dance at one syllabus and one open level (i.e. three couples on our team dance at both Silver and Novice) to "test the waters" of the next level of competition.

Here's my overall view on the entire thing: the point system exists to help make sure that all competitors have a fair chance, against people at their own proficiency level. If one makes a concious choice not to move up because they don't feel proficient at a certain level despite accumulating the necessary points to move up, it really doesn't violate the honor code because points and/or time spent practicing aren't necessarily the best indicators of ability...everyone learns at a different rate. As long as you aren't far ahead of the rest of the people you are competing against, you aren't really committing a violation. Above all it's how comfortable YOU feel with the steps...not how comfortable USABDA tells you SHOULD be.