On2 question

(admittedly this is a repeat of a question that I put on salsaforums)

I've been watching the locals dance On2 around here and have been occasionally dabbling in it myself. I've made an observation, and want to know everyone's experience: Quite a few of the more experienced/better On2 dancers are actually moving with the bass (tumbao) rather than actually on the 2-3. How common is this practice? Is it just a local thing?

(if you're not following what I'm saying, go to sweavo's salsamerlizer and turn off everything but the bass/tumbao).

Don't know about the whole On2 thing but mentioning the Tumbao......

I had a discussion with a Tumbao player who said "less musical dancers dance to the Tumbao". This is a On1 comminuty.

I think at least dancing to SOMETHING constistancy is to be admired.

I'm confused about On2 timing too! What do they listen for? Not all songs have the clave.


related to timing (not ON"2).......

Just saw an advanced class the other day. They put on a timing cd with a track that gave you every beat (1,2,3..5,6,7). About 90% started on the "one" even with the aid of a guy saying "1,2,3.....".
I saw a girl start on 1, the guy stalled until 5. She looked at me and gave me a look like "oh well, what can you do"
I know people have trouble with the music but if your students can't follow a timing cd , well that's shameful on the teachers part.

That salsamerlizer is great. All I was taught in a Web related course (mostly programming though) was how to make a ball bounce back and forth. That's 3rd level Education for you.

new to on2 and loving it

I've been dancing to on1 for about 8 years. I finally learned on2 last fall. I can hardly tell you myself exactly what part of the music I am dancing to but it does feel different. I can describe at least two aspects to this. The first is that I am still listening to the 1 beat but I am simply stepping in a different direction when I step to it. I can feel it most when doing a cross body lead. I can definately feel it with my left foot when starting the lead. I often do a cross body to the 1 beat to get back on the 2 beat. The other more obvious part to this is that by dancing on2 you are "giving" the livelier more active phrase of the music to the follower. This is what makes it "feel" different. You are dancing to a different phrase in the music.

I am vaguely aware that there are different musical instruments and elements that on2 coincide with but I am not enough of a musician to break this down analytically.

"The other more obvious part to this is that by dancing on2 you are "giving" the livelier more active phrase of the music to the follower."


I have to disagree with this. Which is the livelier phrase of the music and how does dancing on 2 have anything to do with it?

Jeni

sorry

Sorry, sort of . . . I got it backwards. I should have said that the first part of the measure is "livelier" by which I mean that this is where the strong downbeat of the music is. When dancing on2 I give that part of the music to the follower.

I am not entirely alone on this. We have a salsa teacher in the area who has been emphisizing musicality in his club lessons. Since he has to teach on1 in this area (San Francisco) he accommodates the music by shifting the phase of the count and has the leaders starting forward on 5. Of course I know another teacher who thinks this is weird.

Dancing on2 changes the direction of the dance. Having danced on2 for about 6 months I can definately feel a difference in my relationship to the music that comes with this change in direction.

They gave you EVERY beat ?-- if you were dancing Waltz !! (3/4 time )

Every beat-- 1,2,3,4 second bar-- 1,2,3,4

S.Mar.-- Not so strange-- its on 2 , of the second bar.

Many teachers dance with that sequence .

I can answer the "livelier part" question. If you listen to the music counting 1 to 8 (let's not get into phrases that swap the 1 and 5 just yet) Then usually the big change-of-section, the fancy brass stabs, or the re-entry after a pause will happen on the 1,2,3 side of the 8 counts.

If you take a CBL or a follower's spin, the lead happens on 1,2,3 and the follow on 5,6,7. On ET2 timing (which is really 'on6' if you think about it in these terms) the lead is happening on 6,7,8 and the follow executes on 1,2,3..

A debate about whether on1 or on2 is 'better' because of this is useless since it's largely a matter of taste, BUT

If you watch LA style dancers, the big stabs on beat 1 are often interpreted with large open breaks, or with a real emphatic movement of the arms starting a CBL, with the move coming in a few beats later.

If you watch ET2 dancers, those points in the music are often the start of a multiple spin or the actual CBL rather than the lead leading up to it.

Interesting (and non-political lol) discussion...

I'd also add that for On1, several instructors have mentioned that the 1-2-3 is often a time for Follows to throw in a little styling (especially after a CBL with lots of separation) and "do their own thing".

While 5-6-7 is when I'm asking her to execute a move.

So I understand what you're saying.

devane said:

I'm confused about On2 timing too! What do they listen for? Not all songs have the clave.

Click to expand...

Yeah, as an On1 dancer, my ear isn't tuned for the 2-3 or the 6-7. I'm mostly listening for those 1's and 5's.

It's why this tumbao/bass thing is a nice crutch possibly (although it's starting to sound like a local thing). If that's what people are listening to, then it should be pretty easy.

Lol - a new style, On2.5 :wink:

devane said:

I'm confused about On2 timing too! What do they listen for? Not all songs have the clave.

Click to expand...

Well,

1) For ETon2 we're stepping on all the same beats as the on1 dancers. It's only the break step that's different.

2) But I'm a bit confused by this question anyway. If you can find the 1, you can find the 2, right? It's the next beat just after!

3) Of course, in my home scene, which is on2, there's definitely a tendency to play on2-specific music. Some music is very difficult to dance to on2 - not because you can't find the 2, but because it isn't emphasized and it doesn't feel like you're dancing to the music.

4) Also, different leaders start on different beats. Some on2 guys will start by stepping back on the 1, others will start by stepping forward on the 6.

noobster said:

2) But I'm a bit confused by this question anyway. If you can find the 1, you can find the 2, right? It's the next beat just after!

Click to expand...

3) Some music is very difficult to dance to on2 - not because you can't find the 2, but because it (the 2) isn't emphasized and it doesn't feel like you're dancing to the music.

Click to expand...

You've answered your own question #2 with your statement in #3 (for me at least). When I say that I have problems finding the 2, it's just as you say - it's not emphasized enough in that particular song for me to hear it.

Thank you sweavo

Thank you sweavo for making clear what I said so badly.

tj said:

You've answered your own question #2 with your statement in #3 (for me at least). When I say that I have problems finding the 2, it's just as you say - it's not emphasized enough in that particular song for me to hear it.

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Well. I wouldn't say that I can't *hear* it. I can hear the 2 in any song, just like I can hear the 5, the 8, or any other beat. It's just that it's not as much fun to dance on2 if the 2 is not emphasized. You can do it (and I have done it with partners who only know on2). I didn't mean that it was difficult in any technical sense. It just doesn't feel right for those songs.

tj said:

devane said:

I'm confused about On2 timing too! What do they listen for? Not all songs have the clave.

Click to expand...

Yeah, as an On1 dancer, my ear isn't tuned for the 2-3 or the 6-7. I'm mostly listening for those 1's and 5's.

Click to expand...

I still think the "dancing to the clave" is either a myth or it means something other than what we think it means. Don't forget clave does not only refer to the 5-tick clave pattern or the two bits of wood, it also refers to a rhythmic rule that ties together consecutive four-beat bars in the music.

If you're looking for a particular instrument to dance on2 to, listen to the conga drum. You get a really dependable slap sound on 2 and 6. This pattern is, confusingly, also called 'tumbao'.

You can switch on and off the rhythmic parts here http://www.oldyorksalsa.com/apps/salsamerlizer/ to find the conga pattern.

I think when people say "we like a music with a strong clave" they mean something with the cascara, tumbao and montuno, i.e. not latin pop, not ricky martin, not timba, not reggaeton.

tj said:

Lol - a new style, On2.5 :wink:

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Heheh. I tried to invent (for the purposes of satire) a new count a while back but it turned out I was doing son. I didn't think of breaking on a half-beat!

salsamarty said:

Thank you sweavo for making clear what I said so badly.

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You're quite welcome!