Following: Good for just the leader?

Question for all y'all out there who are followers. Sorry about being a little verbose.


There are times where, when a follower will tell me that a dance was absolutely fantastic. Some of these times, I'll have enjoyed the dance, and the music, but the follower will be heavy, very late, and in general difficult to lead.

Last night, at a party at my studio, my teacher led me in a waltz (bronze & silver stuff). Now, I'm a pretty terrible follower. She had to manhandle me a bit to get me to follow stuff, and there were plenty of times I misinterpreted things and did something other than what was actually led. In general, it must have been a very difficult dance for her. But, for me, it was great - it (well, she) felt amazingly smooth, and mostly comfortable (probably would have been amazingly comfortable if I weren't such a terrible follower).

So, I know that it can go this way - leaders doing a lot of work, and followers having a fantastic time. Have you ever had it go the other way - where the leader says that the dance was amazing, but, as the follower, while you didn't dislike it, it wasn't all that great?

I mean, I assume that this is possible, but I just don't know how it would work ('cuz, after all, I'm not a follower ). I mean, I've been taught that the follower can't really do much more than the leader can do, since she has to rely on her leader to provide a frame in which she can follow, so I'm failing to see how she can feel amazing to him when he doesn't provide a really good frame for her. Or can it feel amazing to him if he doesn't provide a really good frame?

Thanks,
atk

Well, I would imagine that would a very frequent occurance when the follower is much more advanced than the leader or if the follower is backleading and is good at it The leader can often feel like he has to do no work and the follower is doing all the things he's seemingly leading. To the follower though the dance can feel boring or not well lead, which in turn causes her to do all the work. As a follower, I find that the dances that feel the best are those where both partners are closely matched in level and effort. Any imabalance in both can feel pretty bad to one partner and may feel very good to the other...

I think this is more true in less free-form dance styles, such as standard, where frame and connection is paramount. In styles like WCS, with which I am also very familiar, and where the follow has a LOT more freedom and the dance a lot less structure, the difference in levels is less noticeable and the dance can thus be more enjoyable to both parties even if they are unevenly matched... There are limits here too but, but they are less significant...

I have had it happen. I can think of one gentleman who is something of an indeterminate lead -- nicest guy in the world, but I often see women dancing with him with a question mark floating over their heads as they try to figure out what he wants. One night, I felt like I was really working at a dance with him -- I couldn't just follow what he was leading my body to do, because that was often two or three different things, so I was also applying a level of running intellectual analysis (something like, "well, it feels like it could be any of these these three things, but if I were leading a figure out of the one we just danced, I'd pick....."). Afterwards, he told me what a great follower I was!

So, in such cases, does the leader seem to have enjoyed the feeling of dancing with her? Not just recognizing that she's good, but the feel of the connection? I've danced with people who were far better than me, but with whom I didn't enjoy the feel of the connection.

seems to me that generally the poorer dancer is enjoying the dance more...but to answer your question, I think it is neccessary to differentiate between it being difficult and it feeling bad....ie...I have to work harder for it to feel good to pro, but it then consequently feels better between us...if that makes sense...I think it is very easy for someone who is not moving themself or not balanced to have no idea as long at the person they are with is compensating...and this is often the case because the better dancer will accomodate b/c they know how and it will get them through the dance...then a good pro, if they sense that the dancer really wants to be good, will end that party.....

I've danced with some men who are very forceful leads. They might "make" the followers do the steps, but their lead is so rough that the follower does not enjoy it.

One man at my former studio is notorious for having caused shoulder injuries among multiple of his regular partners. Unfortunately, he still thinks that he is a good lead, even though the ladies who dance with him do not enjoy the dance (and have the injuries to prove it!).

in their defense some are just accustomed to having to...

WorksForShoes said:

I have had it happen. I can think of one gentleman who is something of an indeterminate lead -- nicest guy in the world, but I often see women dancing with him with a question mark floating over their heads as they try to figure out what he wants.

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I observe that there is a certain type of dancer that you run into sometimes on the social scene. This type is just thrilled to be dancing at all, and beyond that they don't much care. Taking lessons or trying to improve is not in their plan. I see this in both leads and follows. There is a gentleman in town that my DW has told me about who gets out on the floor and then just tries to make steps up. He doesn't know nearly enough about choeography to get away with this, and so he often winds up having to lead really awkward things to link steps together. And, because he's always thinking about what he's going to do rather than what he's doing, his body does not communicate to his partner's at all. As near as I can tell, he enjoys the heck out of every dance he does. For his partner, not so much.

As a lead, when I have this experience of not enjoying a dance that my partner has enjoyed, it's usually because I'm dancing with a beginner. Oftentimes they are so delighted just to discover that they can in fact move their feet in time to music that everything they've been taught about frame and connection goes out the window. But that was me not so long ago, so I grin and bear it. Other than that, I don't experience this phenomenon much anymore. Generally if I've enjoyed it, then my partner has too, and if she hasn't, I can usually tell even if she tries to cover it up.

A related question for you experienced follows out there. If a guy dances well, has a good lead, but just doesn't have much of a repetoire of steps, is that an enjoyable dance for you? Would you rather dance with someone who tries to lead a lot of things but has some difficulty with them, or with a lead who only does a few steps, but does them all well?

Fascination,

I think what you said makes sense, and I think it's tangential to my question, so maybe it will help to clarify what I'm trying to ask. I asked my amateur partner, last night, on the phone, and she said she'd think about it (it took a while to make my question clear to her, if I really succeeded). But I figure I'm more likely to get useful input from a larger range of people And I'll ask my teacher about it, tonight, if I can catch her between lessons.

fascination said:

...but to answer your question, I think it is neccessary to differentiate between it being difficult and it feeling bad....

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I think that's moving along the lines of my question.

ie...I have to work harder for it to feel good to pro, but it then consequently feels better between us...

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But, if you don't work hard, the pro can dislike the feel, while you can like the feel. As a follower. I mean, it must be the same for followers, but I can't see how...


I guess I should also say: I've never had a dance that I really liked how my partner felt, and the my partner really disliked how I felt (except, obviously, for last night). Even with really advanced dancers. If I like it, the follower always likes it (or I'm around some amazing actresses). If I dislike it, the follower may still like it, or she may dislike it.

WorksForShoes said:

I have had it happen. I can think of one gentleman who is something of an indeterminate lead -- nicest guy in the world, but I often see women dancing with him with a question mark floating over their heads as they try to figure out what he wants. One night, I felt like I was really working at a dance with him -- I couldn't just follow what he was leading my body to do, because that was often two or three different things, so I was also applying a level of running intellectual analysis (something like, "well, it feels like it could be any of these these three things, but if I were leading a figure out of the one we just danced, I'd pick....."). Afterwards, he told me what a great follower I was!

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So, here's the question that I asked my partner when she initially answered similarly: do you really think he enjoyed the feeling? Like approaching sex-on-the-dancefloor enjoyed it? Or do you think he enjoys something else about it?

There's a fellow at my studio who has the potential to do extremely well - I've even seen him do amazingly well, once. The rest of the time... well.. he just doesn't feel as good as he might (I've followed him in group lessons, and had conversations with several followers, where he's come up). My partner's first thought went to him, but I don't think he really enjoys how the connection feels, in the same way as I'm aiming at (again, the sex-on-the-dancefloor feeling).


To all responders: thanks for your posts. It really is helping me figure out what my question really is.

cornutt said:

A related question for you experienced follows out there. If a guy dances well, has a good lead, but just doesn't have much of a repetoire of steps, is that an enjoyable dance for you? Would you rather dance with someone who tries to lead a lot of things but has some difficulty with them, or with a lead who only does a few steps, but does them all well?

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I'm obviously not an advanced follower, but I'll speak from my experience with some high-intermediate and advanced followers. Most seem to be happy to get a good lead, and don't care so much about patterns. There are one or two that I've run into who, if you don't have a large repertoire, will start to backlead.

A related question for you experienced follows out there. If a guy dances well, has a good lead, but just doesn't have much of a repetoire of steps, is that an enjoyable dance for you? Would you rather dance with someone who tries to lead a lot of things but has some difficulty with them, or with a lead who only does a few steps, but does them all well?

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Absolutely, hands down, no question, I will take the guy with the limited repetoire and good lead. For one thing, a guy with a good lead and good musicality can make a few patterns flow together in such a wonderfully seamless way that it feels like multiple patterns. For another, I would want leads to know that I don't need to be entertained, especially; you don't need to show me all your best tricks, and I'm not keeping count of the number of times you repeat a pattern. Just take me out on the floor, lead a few patterns well, let us enjoy the music, and it will be fine.

two points A)I now know when i am doing stuff that is bad for pro regardless of how nice it is for me...I know most of the time when my body is now lined up such that it feels like I am pulling...b/c he has been willing to hound me on a variety of issues...yes, I can still like it while I am doing it wrong...and it can feel badly for him
B) I am guessing that women are in fact less honest about when it feels bad...I have had many men think that "there is nothing we can't do together" or that a dance was dreamy...while I was working my butt off and other than their very fine company, wouldn't have deemed it nearly as pleasurable

fascination said:

B) I am guessing that women are in fact less honest about when it feels bad...I have had many men think that "there is nothing we can't do together" or that a dance was dreamy...while I was working my butt off and other than their very fine company, wouldn't have deemed it nearly as pleasurable

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Fascination,

Thanks That's exactly the response I was looking to get So, how doe that work? Or is it just one of those things that you really have to experience, to understand?

I think often as the dancing becomes more difficult, poeple sometimes forget to relax, breathe and enjoy. A tightness sets in, and the dancing becomes less enjoyable. As you get more advanced you have to make an effort to breathe, smile and relax, even though the dance steps are difficult.