Issues with Practising

Well I'm not sure if anyone has had similar issues, but this is relatively new to me. As the partnership of 10 weeks is going really good, I feel like it's to the stage that we can take dancing to a new level. We are 1 win away from elevating and potentially from competing in adult open championship level. Therefore we'd like to think that we can self evaluate instead of relying on our professional coach all the time. (we are dancing am-am by the way)

However, my partner thinks that neither of us should be in a position to evaluate the dancing of the other person. Which makes improving very hard and practice seem redundant. If we don't point out mistakes, we'll never correct them. Also, she thinks it's rude if I tell her that she's doing something wrong because I am by no means a significantly better and more knowledgeable dancer. I do realize that I do things wrong too, but instead of announcing to the world that I made a mistake, I just tell me self quietly that I'll try doing it correctly next time. What do you think I should do?


Also when we dance in open position, with single hand hold (as in american smooth, but we call new vogue) A lot of the times our arms are not level, extended to same degree, angel, speed of arm extension and extend of body extension is not equal. Making us look very unsynchronized. Do you think that it's is the man who sets the "boundary" so to speak, as the man leading the timing and shaping. I don't want to tell her what to do etc but if no one says a word, we'd be doing everything out of proportion and time from each other.

I don't think it's the man who sets the boundary, but if you are merely trying to be analytical I think it is very problematic to have a partner who is resistant to this sort of evaluation of your dancing...you can't leave it solely to a coach...the two of you should IMO be able to be candid with each other

fascination said:

I think it is very problematic to have a partner who is resistant to this sort of evaluation of your dancing...you can't leave it solely to a coach...the two of you should IMO be able to be candid with each other

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I agree with Fascination. My coaches have always encouraged my partner and I to be able to recognize when things are not right and to use the knowledge in which we have been imparted by them to work at correcting the issue. I really don’t know the value of your practice if you are not having discussions about your dance as a couple. Now, I must say that I have found that if I begin the discussion with “WE” versus “You” then it tends to be a productive discussion. An example, I might say something like “It seems that when we do the turning lock that it is not comfortable”. I begin this discussion by initiating it without blame, unless it is towards me. I have found that when you initiate the discussion in this manner it allows each to begin a positive discussing what in may seem uncomfortable from each of your perspectives (what you might be feeling or expecting when doing the element without pointing fingers). After that you can begin a discussion about what each of you are doing during that element and finally how to make it better. If you cannot come to an agreement or cannot resolve the issue then you need to put the discussion to the side for the moment and bring these concerns to the attention of your coach. You should also discuss with your coach the things that you and your partner worked on during your practices since it is good to get the professionals opinion on you went about correcting the concerns. I think you will find that this approach will also help you and your partner grow as dancers since it will teach you both how to develop yourselves and give you a better understanding of your dance. Ballroom dancing is about partnering and that cannot occur without good positive honest discussion.

even in my relationship with pro I am encouraged to evaluate what I think is happening, what I am feeling from him, how we might adjust etc....and I have learned to take his evaluations as what they are not a critique but toward the common goal of good dancing...no matter what one dances, IMO, that is essential

The best feedback you can get is from your partner. He/she knows your dancing better than anyone. If you can't communicate about what each of you is feeling and seeing in each other, then you are missing out on a huge opportunity to improve.

If your partner doesn't recognize the value of that, I would consider that to be a problem.

Although it is common for partners to correct each other in a way that is not constructive. This can be in the form of blaming each other, or just phrasing things in a way that is rude or hurtful. Obviously I don't know anything about your particular situation, but is it possible that your partner is put off by the way that you are phrasing things, or the type of feedback you are offering? Every comment you make should be constructive, and without assigning blame. Or if you see a problem and don't have a suggestion or solution, then the comment should be opening a discussion to finding the answer together.

It's also important to stick to your interest, instead of your position. Your interest is improving the dancing of the partnership. Your position may be that your partner is doing something wrong. In exploring the issue, always keep your mind open to the possibility that the error might be on your end, even if it feels otherwise. As you delve into issue, you might be surprised what you find. But stick to the idea that the goal is to improve the partnership, not simply to correct your partner. Then the two of you will always be working together towards a common goal instead of fighting against each other about who is right, who is wrong, and who has the knowledge and right to correct whom.

I recommend examining what you are saying and how you are saying it. And if the problem really is that your partner will not accept any input from you, then I would open a discussion about it. Perhaps you two can spell out your points of view, and find a way to compromise. Or perhaps you will find that your views are too different, and there is no compromise. But at least you'll be communicating about it.

Assume you are right, but that the information will be more effective coming from a respected outside party.

At this stage of a partnership, probably the best thing to do is take a ton of lessons with coaches you are willing to (provisionally, for the moment) trust completely, and just dance without thinking. Just do it for a while and see what happens.

Competitions are rarely won by the couple that is the most correct, instead they are won by the couple that fully dances what they are capable of. Improving the correctness of you dancing will help slowly, but the big differences come from making the most of what you have at the moment.

I think the way critiques are stated is KEY. I agree with the "we" idea - that is what I always try to do when making comments about what I'm feeling from my partner. And it's not a patronizing kind of "we" but one that's is totally accurate. Anything your partner is doing *can* be a product of what you are doing so telling her what she is doing incorrectly is assuming that everything you are doing is correct. That's a pretty big assumption to make and she may be responding to that assumption with somewhat justified hurt feelings that you are being "rude". If you are putting your comments as "you are doing something wrong" and you are NOT the more knowledgeable dancer (and by that I don't mean her more knowledgeable partner, I mean a coach), then you really are being rude.

If you say something like: "I feel something that you are doing and it's probably me who is causing it so let's try to figure out what it is both of us are doing and see if we can fix it", I seriously doubt she'll think you're being rude. So try that.

The best thing about my 8.5-year-old partnership has been that we are always able to say what we're feeling from each other and try to collaboratively fix it ourselves in practice. This has allowed us to be a great partnership that improves. When we are not able to fix it ourselves, we take it to a coach and that leads to further improvement. Communication in a partnership is the end all and be all, period. If you cannot do it, there really is no point in maintaining it beyond a point where either of you is able to find another partner with whom good communication is possible.

Chris Stratton said:

Competitions are rarely won by the couple that is the most correct, instead they are won by the couple that fully dances what they are capable of.

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well-put... something to remember always... go for it and dance...

Ithink said:

I think the way critiques are stated is KEY. I agree with the "we" idea - that is what I always try to do when making comments about what I'm feeling from my partner. And it's not a patronizing kind of "we" but one that's is totally accurate. Anything your partner is doing *can* be a product of what you are doing so telling her what she is doing incorrectly is assuming that everything you are doing is correct. That's a pretty big assumption to make and she may be responding to that assumption with somewhat justified hurt feelings that you are being "rude". If you are putting your comments as "you are doing something wrong" and you are NOT the more knowledgeable dancer (and by that I don't mean her more knowledgeable partner, I mean a coach), then you really are being rude.

If you say something like: "I feel something that you are doing and it's probably me who is causing it so let's try to figure out what it is both of us are doing and see if we can fix it", I seriously doubt she'll think you're being rude. So try that.

The best thing about my 8.5-year-old partnership has been that we are always able to say what we're feeling from each other and try to collaboratively fix it ourselves in practice. This has allowed us to be a great partnership that improves. When we are not able to fix it ourselves, we take it to a coach and that leads to further improvement. Communication in a partnership is the end all and be all, period. If you cannot do it, there really is no point in maintaining it beyond a point where either of you is able to find another partner with whom good communication is possible.

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I agree.

SwingWaltz, have you tried positive reinforcement? Like, "that turn felt good (light, sharp, nice shape, etc.), let's try to repeat that" or I like the shape that you are doing in this spanish drag."

Lorelei said:

I agree.

SwingWaltz, have you tried positive reinforcement? Like, "that turn felt good (light, sharp, nice shape, etc.), let's try to repeat that" or I like the shape that you are doing in this spanish drag."

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Those kinds of statements serve as more than just positive reinforcement. They are an important part of the communication that serves mutual improvement. If you do something well, how will you know that you did it well and should try to repeat it, if you don't get that kind of feedback?

skwiggy said:

Those kinds of statements serve as more than just positive reinforcement. They are an important part of the communication that serves mutual improvement. If you do something well, how will you know that you did it well and should try to repeat it, if you don't get that kind of feedback?

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Ditto.

And besides, if saying that something felt/looked good is not objectionable (provided that it is communicated), saying that something did not feel as good as usual, or does not feel quite comfortable yet and has room for improvment, is likely to be accepted than considered rude...

Communication is a must in a partnership. If you cannot discuss how either one of you are feeling, this is a major problem. I have ended many partnerships simply because the woman was not willing to/ unable to communicate with me.

A few notes of advice:

Since I am under the impression that you guys are at a similar level, comments such as, this feels wrong, can you try this, that doesn't work, etc... won't help. She may think that you are trying to be the boss and may also get the impression that you think you are better than she is.

You could try to work around this by:

1) Find out how she wishes to communicate in the relationship. Ask her preferred style of communication is.

2) When you feel something is not working, stop and say, "something doesn't feel right, can you help me figure out where we are loosing eachother?"

This will give her the chance to open up to you before she hears your comments. (She will feel less attacked).

Sometimes no matter how you try and say it, it never comes across the way you intend it. Video your practice then go back and look at it together. Remember the spots where you had problems and check it out on the video so that each of you see what you are doing. What you think you are doing and what you really are doing is often not the same. It may be better that your partner sees herself and realizes how your and her arms don't match and so forth. You telling her may be seen as criticism.
One thing you may find is that its a 50/50. You may be surprised how many problems you think are her's actually stems from you and vice versa.
Remember to look at the things you are doing well along with the things you are doing wrong. The best thing is to video tape doing some moves, watch it, then go back and try it again and see if it improved or needs another tactic or tweaking to attain it.
Video cameras allow you to match how your body will feel, or where you need to put it to achieve a certain look.

Ok. I’ve had some very different partnerships, so here’s my perspective.

My last partner, though I was (am) deeply in love with her, was very criticial of my dancing, in the sense that she would instantly point out what I was doing wrong, and our practices would consist of “you need to this” “Ok, you’re not doing this,” “Remember what our teacher said about this?” and so on.

She is a blunt person by nature, and I knew it was just stemming from a desire for us to improve and dance better, and when we weren’t practicing we were very close, right up till the day she left.


My current partner doesn’t criticise. She concentrates on her dancing, and if I feel something’s not right, I’ll ask her if she needs something else from me, and if so, what. If it is me, she’ll say what she needs. Otherwise, we just dance together.



Now, I’m capable of taking criticism, God knows I’m critical enough of myself. But I can promise you, the latter partnership has been much a more productive and healthy working relationship. I feel better about my dancing with the new girl, I’m happier with my own dancing since I’m not getting a constant stream of “you’re not doing it right,” and my dancing is improving much more quickly.



In short, I’m not a fan of criticising or “evaluating” what your partner is doing.









Also, please don’t forget that the man’s job in ballroom dancing is to make the lady feel like she’s on top of the world. Everything we should be doing is to make her feel good, not the other way around.

Men’s steps, holds etc etc work that, if you’re lady is looking and feeling good, you’re going to look good yourself.




That ususally means it's our fault. Simply because, even if the lady makes a mistake, we should be able to keep her comfortable.

well waltzelf...I respect your differing view, but I do disagree...A) there is a big difference between being blunt and criticizing and being reflective and collaborative...just b/c you don't want her opinion unless you ask for it doesn't mean you aren't missing something valuable for not having it.. and B)I am not even sure I totally agree with your characterization of what the man's job is but, as in other arenas, when a woman senses that a man doesn't want input, she can easily settle and fake it, doesn't mean she's unhappy mind you, just means that it probably isn't going to get as good as it could...for either of them