Becoming more responsive to the lead?

So, in my ongoing tango journey, I have encountered another stumbling block. A few of you may recall that I wasted months until I finally found a good teacher, took more months of lessons, and I feel like I can finally follow basic moves decently well.

However, another issue came up in a workshop this week with an out-of-town teacher.

There were a couple moves that started with the follower being led to project her leg out before moving. The teacher tried this with me and I didn't respond. He pointed to how he was lifting his chest upward, to indicate what I was supposed to respond to. I don't get this - I thought if, for example, the leader wants me to project my leg to the back, wouldn't he need to start sending his energy forward, rather than straight up? I just didn't feel anything directionally from his lead. What am I missing here?

Also, this teacher generally said I need to be more sensitive and quickly responsive to a slight or subtle lead, and that I shouldn't wait for the guy to make me move. But I guess I am just not ready yet to understand a subtle lead. As followers we keep getting told wait-wait-wait for the lead, so I wait until I am sure that I know what I am being led to do.

After more than a year struggling with tango, I am still feeling frustrated and I'm still not enjoying it most of the time. When I'm dancing, I sometimes feel like I'm taking a test, and I wonder what percentage of the questions I will get right.
I know that I have improved quite a bit - but obviously there is still something I'm not understanding. Any suggestions?

jennyisdancing said:

There were a couple moves that started with the follower being led to project her leg out before moving. The teacher tried this with me and I didn't respond. He pointed to how he was lifting his chest upward, to indicate what I was supposed to respond to.

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Chest up can never lead a projection of the leg. Chest down or chest forward, maybe.
But possibly it was some kind of circular movement of the chest, starting up and ending down. Then the idea might be that you prepare for the projection when the chest goes up (making the leg free) and when the chest goes down the leg goes backward (or to the side)

A subtle lead is not a weird, unnatural, counter-intuitive lead. It's the same lead than usual, but softer.

Yeah... I'm a bit mystified, myself. Can you describe more about the exercise, and about what type of embrace you were in? My best guess at this point is perhaps you were being led to shift your weight onto one leg to free up the other? Depending on the circumstances he would gently lift you and then place you onto one leg...

newbie said:

Chest up can never lead a projection of the leg. Chest down or chest forward, maybe.
But possibly it was some kind of circular movement of the chest, starting up and ending down. Then the idea might be that you prepare for the projection when the chest goes up (making the leg free) and when the chest goes down the leg goes backward (or to the side)

A subtle lead is not a weird, unnatural, counter-intuitive lead. It's the same lead than usual, but softer.

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I agree with Newbie.. This is very strange.

To me, a deliberate "lifting up" lead is a cue to stay still because the leader is going to do something in which I am the anchor point or axis around which he is going to revolve. I would never intuitively extend my free leg simply because he lifts me straight up. Once I figure out what he is doing, I might embellish with my free leg while he does it, and that might take my leg somewhere. But I wouldn't expect to be lifted as a lead for reaching.

Similarly, a downward pressure is also often a cue to stay planted in the position you are in while the leader uses you as the rotational axis. What you do with the free leg during the rotation and whether you extend it depends on a variety of factors.

But lifting and expecting extension is pretty odd. For one thing, the more you are lifted, the LESS distance you can extend. So lifting as a cue to extend is VERY counterintuitive. Lifting sorta PREVENTS extending and is sometimes used for exactly that purpose to shorten the followers stride for a quicker step or in a crowded situation.

I wouldn't take this situation too much too heart.

Yep. I agree.

jennyisdancing said:

He pointed to how he was lifting his chest upward, to indicate what I was supposed to respond to. I don't get this - I thought if, for example, the leader wants me to project my leg to the back, wouldn't he need to start sending his energy forward, rather than straight up? I just didn't feel anything directionally from his lead. What am I missing here?

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jenny, I don't think you missed anything.

I agree that this is a bit strange. If I (as leader) lift up, then its probably a lead for something centered within an axis, like a calecita.

(As a leader) If I wanted you to do something with your leg, I woud expect you to wait, then move when I lead some movement to indunce your leg moving in the direction I'm trying to lead.

jennyisdancing said:

Also, this teacher generally said I need to be more sensitive and quickly responsive to a slight or subtle lead, and that I shouldn't wait for the guy to make me move. But I guess I am just not ready yet to understand a subtle lead. As followers we keep getting told wait-wait-wait for the lead, so I wait until I am sure that I know what I am being led to do.

Click to expand...

Again, a bit strange... IMHO, it is the leader's job to adapt to the level of the follower. A good leader will be able to sense this (IME), and dance appropriately to that level, and be able to lead what is being led.

IMHO, you are also right with the ...wait, wait, wait for the lead.

jennyisdancing said:

After more than a year struggling with tango, I am still feeling frustrated and I'm still not enjoying it most of the time. When I'm dancing, I sometimes feel like I'm taking a test, and I wonder what percentage of the questions I will get right.
I know that I have improved quite a bit - but obviously there is still something I'm not understanding. Any suggestions?

Click to expand...

I've a few women friends who have been in this same predicamnet you are in. My advice to them is:

• Trust yourself: You already know the basics and more. You just need to apply it
• Let go: Close your eyes, breathe, listen to the music, listen to your partner's body, trust, and just dance
• Don't think too much: Trying to anticipate a move confuses both leader and follower. Wait, wait, wait....
• Watch the good leaders: They are not necessarily the ones with the cool big moves. They are the ones who move well, and always have a connection with their partners, whoever they dance with. Try to get their attention and dance with them
• Watch the good followers: Again, these are not necessarily the ones with the big cool moves. They are the ones who can make something so simple look so beautiful
• Don't get hung up on moves: If you go to a milonga that is predominantly in "Close embrace," viejo, salon, milonguero, whatever, etc. You'll find the movements to be VERY simple. Its the delivery and musicality that makes a difference. The only time big loud moves will matter is when your dancing with someone "Showy," "Nuevo-esqe," etc. Also if you find yourself in a very milonga where the dancers predominantly dance this way
• Dance with the leaders who dance "Simple" Its a beautiful thing
• Dance a lot
• Be patient: Steps are easy to learn. It the walking part that's hard and proficiency only comes with practice

Zoopsia59 said:

Lifting sorta PREVENTS extending and is sometimes used for exactly that purpose to shorten the followers stride for a quicker step or in a crowded situation.

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That's exactly what my teacher taught me - that when the leader lifts up, it is typically to keep the follower in one spot.

Yeah... I'm a bit mystified, myself. Can you describe more about the exercise, and about what type of embrace you were in? My best guess at this point is perhaps you were being led to shift your weight onto one leg to free up the other? Depending on the circumstances he would gently lift you and then place you onto one leg...

Click to expand...

No, the purpose was not to lead a weight shift. It was at the start of a move where the follower projects her left leg back but her weight remains on her right. The next part of the move involved the leader going partially around her, turning the follower's body to her left, while her weight is still on her right. So she ends up facing the other way, on her right foot, but now with her left leg projecting forward instead of behind her. That move was followed by a gancho which used the follower's left leg (which is why that leg had to remain free).

p.s. why is it that every time I try a tango workshop with so-called experts, I only end up confused? They all seem to contradict each other. I have not found this to be the case with West Coast Swing, where I have taken many workshops with top people and they are all on the same page with basic technique, even if their styles vary.

p.p.s. aside from the move in question, I really do also want to know generally how I develop better ability to respond to more subtle leads. Is it just a matter of time and experience, or are there certain skills/techniques I need to learn?

Ampster said:

Trust yourself: You already know the basics and more. You just need to apply it

• Let go: Close your eyes, breathe, listen to the music, listen to your partner's body, trust, and just dance
• Don't think too much: Trying to anticipate a move confuses both leader and follower. Wait, wait, wait....
• Watch the good leaders: They are not necessarily the ones with the cool big moves. They are the ones who move well, and always have a connection with their partners, whoever they dance with. Try to get their attention and dance with them
• Watch the good followers: Again, these are not necessarily the ones with the big cool moves. They are the ones who can make something so simple look so beautiful
• Don't get hung up on moves: If you go to a milonga that is predominantly in "Close embrace," viejo, salon, milonguero, whatever, etc. You'll find the movements to be VERY simple. Its the delivery and musicality that makes a difference. The only time big loud moves will matter is when your dancing with someone "Showy," "Nuevo-esqe," etc. Also if you find yourself in a very milonga where the dancers predominantly dance this way
• Dance with the leaders who dance "Simple" Its a beautiful thing
• Dance a lot
• Be patient: Steps are easy to learn. It the walking part that's hard and proficiency only comes with practice

Click to expand...

:applause: :applause::applause: - brill advice.

jennyisdancing said:

So, in my ongoing tango journey, I have encountered another stumbling block. A few of you may recall that I wasted months until I finally found a good teacher, took more months of lessons, and I feel like I can finally follow basic moves decently well.

However, another issue came up in a workshop this week with an out-of-town teacher.

There were a couple moves that started with the follower being led to project her leg out before moving. The teacher tried this with me and I didn't respond. He pointed to how he was lifting his chest upward, to indicate what I was supposed to respond to. I don't get this - I thought if, for example, the leader wants me to project my leg to the back, wouldn't he need to start sending his energy forward, rather than straight up? I just didn't feel anything directionally from his lead. What am I missing here?

Also, this teacher generally said I need to be more sensitive and quickly responsive to a slight or subtle lead, and that I shouldn't wait for the guy to make me move. But I guess I am just not ready yet to understand a subtle lead. As followers we keep getting told wait-wait-wait for the lead, so I wait until I am sure that I know what I am being led to do.

After more than a year struggling with tango, I am still feeling frustrated and I'm still not enjoying it most of the time. When I'm dancing, I sometimes feel like I'm taking a test, and I wonder what percentage of the questions I will get right.
I know that I have improved quite a bit - but obviously there is still something I'm not understanding. Any suggestions?

Click to expand...

I don't know who the teacher was, but based upon what you have posted, I would say that either he is a poor communicator, or he is wrong about what an up lead is supposed to signal as well as not knowing how to indicate intention for the follower to move her foot back. More likely, a poor communicator though.

While I agree, that it is desirable for a follower to be sensitive, that takes time to develop, and of course you would need to dance with the better leaders to really develop that skill.

IMO, it is the leader's job to make the leads clear, and he wasn't doing that for you (his bad). It's hard to believe that he thinks he can lead the same exact way for every follower. I'd be curious to know who the teacher was.

One suggestion, go to a practica and ask for feedback from people you dance with. A lot of people will say different things, but hopefully there will be some common elements in the feedback you receive.

jennyisdancing said:

That's exactly what my teacher taught me - that when the leader lifts up, it is typically to keep the follower in one spot.

No, the purpose was not to lead a weight shift. It was at the start of a move where the follower projects her left leg back but her weight remains on her right. The next part of the move involved the leader going partially around her, turning the follower's body to her left, while her weight is still on her right. So she ends up facing the other way, on her right foot, but now with her left leg projecting forward instead of behind her. That move was followed by a gancho which used the follower's left leg (which is why that leg had to remain free).

p.s. why is it that every time I try a tango workshop with so-called experts, I only end up confused? They all seem to contradict each other. I have not found this to be the case with West Coast Swing, where I have taken many workshops with top people and they are all on the same page with basic technique, even if their styles vary.

p.p.s. aside from the move in question, I really do also want to know generally how I develop better ability to respond to more subtle leads. Is it just a matter of time and experience, or are there certain skills/techniques I need to learn?

Click to expand...

I think I can see a little where y'all might have been going in the class. If I am understanding what you described, then it kind of ends up something like what happens in what I call a "re-volcada" where you get twisted around your free leg so the lead is free to lead andother volcada.

To be honest, I've never heard of lift being involved with leg extension. That usually causes somethng else...don't know...was there a language barrier perhaps?

However, feeling the leads torso initiate movement (in close embrace) and allowing the leg to extend out of the way a little to make room for the step when it happens (without having moved your axis) sounds like it is something differnt from what y'all may have been doing.

One thing I'd like to share...seeing as you've had some major frustration with your lessons, is you may want to really start trying to understand the hallmarks of the different styles and what style your main teacher is teaching in. If your teacher is teaching milonguero style tango and you go to a Nuevo workshop (which is what the move y'all were doing sounds like) then you are going to be exposed to some differing ideas to what you are learning.

There is nothing wrong with this. They are all facets of tango. But until you can orient yourself in terms of going to a class and being able to accept that differnt styles of tango have some different technique associated with them from differing teaching styles, then you may continue to be frustrated. I know I was for the first year or so. It was like wandering around in a continual haze of stuff being taught from so many perspectives, I just didn't know what to do. Once I sorted out my own understanding of the differnt styles, I was able to start going to workshops (or nix the ones I didn't find relevant to what I wanted to work on at the time) and keep a more open and less confused mind about it since I could now see what style they might be working in and be able to accomodate or adjust without confusion.

If you recall the thread started by Ampster a month or so ago, he had been dancing Salon style and went to Milonguero style worshop and ended up having to relearn ideas about wakling, embracing and so forth...

My main piece of advice on teachers that contradict one another...my rule of thumb is if I can get 3 similar opinions from 3 separate masters on a subject, then I use that as a general rule...if I get less than that on something I have a question about, it's still up for grabs.

To be honest, I've never heard of lift being involved with leg extension. That usually causes somethng else...don't know...was there a language barrier perhaps?

Click to expand...

However, feeling the leads torso initiate movement (in close embrace) and allowing the leg to extend out of the way a little to make room for the step when it happens (without having moved your axis) sounds like it is something differnt from what y'all may have been doing.

Click to expand...

There was no language barrier. I do think the lead was supposed to be more like what you describe, where basically the leader initiates movement, without allowing her weight to change. And yes, this teacher is more of a nuevo style person (although I watched some of his videos and saw that he could also do a traditional style). Still, shouldn't the fundamental principles of lead and follow be the same, even if the styles and steps are different? I mean, shouldn't a person be able to learn a foundation where they can take that to various tango communities and dance with others?

jennyisdancing said:

There was no language barrier. I do think the lead was supposed to be more like what you describe, where basically the leader initiates movement, without allowing her weight to change. And yes, this teacher is more of a nuevo style person (although I watched some of his videos and saw that he could also do a traditional style). Still, shouldn't the fundamental principles of lead and follow be the same, even if the styles and steps are different? I mean, shouldn't a person be able to learn a foundation where they can take that to various tango communities and dance with others?

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We're all dying to know who this was... if you don't think its appropriate to say on the board, can you email?

Secret Handshake.

I know a guy who stayed in Buenos Aires for 3 months. When he came back he would instruct all of the women who would listen to him (He had been to Buenos Aires!) that, if he moved his right hand up on their back, then they were supposed to take little stutter steps to the side. "Firpo does it" was the expanantion.
Meanwhile, I had learned to lead this same movement as, doing quick steps,
step to the side
collect
lead a weight change
step to the side
etc.
(When leading this, it helps to use your torso a bit, but there we are getting pretty subtle.)

What would usually happen is that, because the women wouldn't collect, they would quickly fall behind in the moving sideways, and I would have to stop.
Meanwhile, if they had learned the Firpo Secret HandShake, they could "follow", and do, the exact same movement.

You will find that there is a huge amount of conflicting information coming from many different sources. You may chose to explore different styles, schools of thought, etc, simultaneously, or you may decide to concentrate on one style and get good at that.

"Also, this teacher generally said I need to be more sensitive and quickly responsive to a slight or subtle lead, and that I shouldn't wait for the guy to make me move."
Yeah, you will hear this a lot, because that's the way some (Many?) people like to dance.

Pushing up, pulling down, to keep someone in place as they rotate? Either way, if your center hasn't been moved enough to make you want to take a step, you stay in place.

AT, sort of like swing, has never been dictated and prescribed, as have the "ballroom" dances. And, when you look at the century plus history of the dance and the music, you can't help but notice how much it's changed, and how differently people dance it.
(Reminds me of how Dean Collins, when asked if he started West Coast Swing, is supposed to have said, "It's all Swing." (I read that as , No I didn't))

If you like that style, and want to learn that particular movement, add it to your vocabulary, especially if you dance with this instructor again, or someone who had this lesson with him. If you don't add it to your vocab, you've still learned something.

jennyisdancing said:

There was no language barrier. I do think the lead was supposed to be more like what you describe, where basically the leader initiates movement, without allowing her weight to change. And yes, this teacher is more of a nuevo style person (although I watched some of his videos and saw that he could also do a traditional style). Still, shouldn't the fundamental principles of lead and follow be the same, even if the styles and steps are different? I mean, shouldn't a person be able to learn a foundation where they can take that to various tango communities and dance with others?

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Well- like most everyone has said, that lift to extend thing has most of us a little confused....and I'm sure we don't all dance in the same styles...so there is some basic foundational agreement there, I think...if I'd been in this person workshop, I'd have been all over that lift to extend thing asking questions....

So should we be able to go to anywhere and dane with anyone...sure...but what about this...If you go to a town where they dance mostly Apilado style (this is theoretical since that probably doesn't exist) and you don't know anything about apilado style and have never had instruction in it...do you think that only a "basic" foundation will prepare you for what you would need to do? Someone will have to adapt and it's usually the more experienced person. Same idea, differnt chapter...if you dance mainly close embrace and go to a place where Nuevo is predominant...same thing...so you think you are going to be immediately good at Nuevo styling?

I think a reasonably well trained person who has at least (knowingly) had some experience in the differnt style and aspects of tango (as opposed to random classes that they didn't understand what they were seeing) will be able to adapt to most situations...

People with less training, less exposure...will most likely have more problems...We have people in my own town who prefer milonguero style dancing and they have problems with the ladies who only do Salon because the ladies automatically go to a "v" because that's what they know, and they auto dissociate whether or not dissociation is being led because that's what they are used to...Could they go anywhere and dance...sure...but someone will have to adapt to them as they can't do the adapting. Same thing for leads who can't adapt.

jennyisdancing said:

. It was at the start of a move where the follower projects her left leg back but her weight remains on her right. The next part of the move involved the leader going partially around her, turning the follower's body to her left, while her weight is still on her right. So she ends up facing the other way, on her right foot, but now with her left leg projecting forward instead of behind her. That move was followed by a gancho which used the follower's left leg (which is why that leg had to remain free).
?

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This sounds to me like a basic axis turn with a bit of choreography in the form of a "fouette" added.

How would you know to extend your leg behind you for the start? But what's more, how could you know that your leg should stay where it is so that it ends up in front as you turn to it, instead of holding it behind you in a turning arabesque or even collecting it in? How would you know?

Well, if it were choreographed that way, you would know!

Other than that? I suppose given that this sounds very neotango and your legs should be looser and more flow-ey, that you wouldn't be expected to put in effort in your hips to hold your leg behind you as you turn, but rather you would let it lag behind your body as the rotating occured which would leave it in front of you at some point. Then as it tried to catch up with the rotation, and the leader's leg gets in there as your leg tries to continue swinging, that a gancho could occur.

However, first you would have had to know to extend back at the start, and i'm not seeing anything in your description that would cause that. Then you would have to be aware of the stylistic differences in neo and traditional tango so that you wouldn't be trying to collect into a compact position. For neo, your hips really need to be loose and relaxed and the tight collecting at the knees or feet isn't as much a part of the style. Trailing (and open) free legs and less collecting is common. I could see the move happening as you describe him wanting under those circumstances.

But I don't think you not getting it means you still haven't learned anything in your year of effort.

I'm a firm believer in learning a traditional style with a good habit of collecting and controlling FIRST. Collecting makes you commit to weight changes. Too many people with an open free leg aren't actually doing a "style", they just are tentative about the step and aren't truly over their standing leg.

After you have really learned to control your balance, weight changes and collecting not just your feet, but your BODY, then you can do the open loose styles more easily because you'll know that your feet really aren't all that important in the collecting... its all about the body, axis and balance.

But its easier (I think) to train those important concepts into your dancing with a traditional style than trying to train your body to collect while leaving your leg open and loose. There's a reason that ballet dancers learn to pirouette in a pulled in position before they do it in arabesque just as there's a reason skaters learn simple scratch spins before camel spins.