Feel like never entering a comp again :(

Hi all
I am a long time viewer of this site and find it a real help in my dancing. I suppose I could do with a bit more help this morning though.

Just came from a competition were we tied for first place. Should be happy I know but the couple that tied with us are no where near our standard. I know this because they go to the same school as us and we see them dance. They have not danced in over 3 months and are finding the basics difficult to manage. We are in beginners. Our teachers were at the comp and could not believe the result. We have put in the work made no mistakes and danced our best. Our teachers are at a loss which really is of no help to us. Things like they are a taller couple (apparently some judges prefer taller couples) the judge wanted to share the wins so as to encourage beginners to stay at it etc
I feel like we lost! This is not the first time that we have being treated badly by a judge in the past we have came second to couples dancing steps outside of the syllabus or were dancing below there grade. We have had judges pick their own couple. I'm the type of person who follows the rules and I expect others to do the same if you are going to enter a competition.
How do you pick yourself up "again" after a bad and maybe unfair result?
My partner has a theory that Beginners don't get the same serious attention as higher grades from judges.

I do love dancing but maybe I am not cut out for competition.


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Ginger said:

Hi all
I am a long time viewer of this site and find it a real help in my dancing.
Just came from a competition were we tied for first place. Our teachers were at the comp and could not believe the result. Things like they are a taller couple (apparently some judges prefer taller couples); the judge wanted to share the wins so as to encourage beginners to stay at it etc
I feel like we lost! This is not the first time that we have being treated badly by a judge in the past we have came second to couples dancing steps outside of the syllabus or were dancing below there grade. We have had judges pick their own couple.

How do you pick yourself up "again" after a bad and maybe unfair result?

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Welcome, Ginger, to the DF. Glad you stopped just reading, and posted.

Your question is two-fold. Unfortunately, there is no accounting for the judging at comps. I am one. I, as most others, try to be; professional, impartial to professional/personal feelings, and view comp as a fun and learning experience for the dancers. However, there are times when the issues that you pose come to view. Often, no one really knows how or why a score results in the manner which it does.

The second point merges with the first...you pick yourself up "again". Comp is like life...there are others vying for your seat on the metro or your place in the lane on the way to work; there are others vying for your position on the job; your place in the lunch line; your time with the kids. It's just life.

Perhaps someone took the seat; cut you off; was promoted; bought a better toy. You do not awaken in the a.m. and say, "I love to live, but maybe I am just not cut out for this life". You simply get yourself up "again". If dance is worth doing, then it is worth doing "again".

I know that this was probably not the type of reply that you wished for, but I also hope that you find it to place things in a more proper perspective. I do not mean to belittle the disappointment of not doing better. But, there is much to be said for your knowing, and your teachers' knowing, that you were better, even if the judges didn't.

Bonne chance, cherie.

Should be happy I know but the couple that tied with us are no where near our standard.

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How do you define standard? What did you look for when you made the comparasion youself? Are those the same that the judges look for? And how do you differentiate between good or bad. There are days at the competition I felt that I danced fabulously but what I saw in the video later absolutely disgust me. There are days I thought I did something right, but I have done the wrong.

We have put in the work made no mistakes and danced our best.

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Remember it's a competition, just because you danced your best doesn't mean it's the best on the floor. You may not have seen the other couple for 3 month, but it doesn't mean that is going to stop them from dancing their best or even better than they have ever danced before. I remember winning the nationals after 3 weeks of no dancing, and it felt crap although we won. It was definitely not our personal best, but will do to beat the rest of the field.

This is not the first time that we have being treated badly by a judge in the past we have came second to couples dancing steps outside of the syllabus or were dancing below there grade.

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You are not marked by one judge, you are marked by a number of judges from different studios etc. Hence no one is treating you badly. There is no rule saying that a lower grade couple should not win at high grade. I see too many of that happening, simply due to the fact the a lot of people prefer to go through the grade even though they are capable to dance at higher level. With regards to dancing out of syllabus, say there are 6 couples on the floor for a final with 1min30 music time, each couple will only be seen for 15 seconds. It is very unlikely that every step will be monitored and more likely than not, one or two steps out of the syllabus will be missed.

How do you pick yourself up "again" after a bad and maybe unfair result?

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You don't pick your self up again. You just don't let things like these knock you down. If you feel like you can not take what has happened to you and forget about it, ballroom dancing probably isn't for you.

Perhaps you are taking this all a bit too seriously? When you start dancing you can become very good in aspects of it but its virtually impossible to become good at all aspects at the same time. I agree in essence with SW - you may well be good at the aspects of ballroom that your teacher finds important but may not be as good at those that the judges value.

A good way to approach this is to watch a lot of other heats. What you will inevitably see is a couple that you think is excellent and another that is boring - and then the judges award first place to the boring one. Thats because syllabus dancing is really not about looking great its about establishing an excellent technique and the judges were either recognizing a technical development in the boring couple or penalizing the more flashy ones because of a disregard for technical accuracy.

If you did not do as well as you expect (hey, we all feel that OK?) then look to improving your own dancing. If your teacher can not see why you did less well - then ask a different professional, perhaps even one of the judges if you think you can approach them.

I have found that thoughts of judging bias are only destructive to my dancing. The best way to deal with post-comp blues is to accept that you were not as good at the other couple on that day and look to improving yourself and your partnership.

Ginger said:

Hi all

Just came from a competition were we tied for first place. Should be happy I know but the couple that tied with us are no where near our standard.
I feel like we lost! This is not the first time that we have being treated badly by a judge
How do you pick yourself up "again" after a bad and maybe unfair result?


I do love dancing but maybe I am not cut out for competition.

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Hi Ginger.
I`d just like to say that this does happen in competition.
A similar type of result happened to me on occasion.
Once, some time after i`d finished 15th in the British Championship at Blackpool, i was beaten in competition by a couple who were still dancing Pre Championship.
I was stunned, but laughed it off as i knew it wasn`t a true reflection.
Judges are only human after all and sometimes make errors as we all do.
Just to add to this point.
A week later i was competing and was overmarked by a judge.
In Waltz he placed me first, above two much higher ranked dancers than me, indeed one couple he marked me above had finished in 3rd place at the British Championships.
So, judges marks can sometimes be an unexpected pleasant surprise as well as being sometimes disappointing.
Politics can also enter the equation, but i`m not going there.
Generally though, the couples who dance best come out on top.
Take it on the chin, keep smiling, and i`ve no doubt you`ll get the results you deserve over a period of time.

hi ginger ...I echo angel's sentiments....I would also add that, for my own sanity, I tried to look at my results over the year rather than from comp to comp b/c something bizarre tended to happen at every comp when one dances as much as I did for a while...I really appreciate your frustration...when dancing with a lesser known pro, I would sometimes be beaten by women who couldn't stand up straight but often got a pass for the wrong reason, and now that I dance with a better known pro, I know I walk in with an advantage...not that I intend to skate on it mind you, because I love dance and I have been there...but when those things would happen they would really offend my sense of justice b/c I had worked hard and the differential was sometimes aggregious...but you know, I chose what I chose for reasons that were very important to me ...more important than marks...and I am glad now for those experiences b/c they help me to just go out there and do what I have trained hard to do and to no longer take my results as authentic....not b/c I don't care to mark well, but b/c I know that there are too many things I am not in control of...and I love the dancing and competing...so I focus now I what I do have control of...how much I practice and how much information I can get

anyone who competes for some length of time will experience this. just use it as motivation to become indisputably better.

This may sound tough, but there may be something about their dancing that gave them an edge, that you're not aware of.

Keep dancing and compete again.

Or keep dancing and don't compete again. Just because you dance, doesn't mean you have to compete (which I know is heresy to say around here!) There's a world of enjoyable things you can do with dancing that don't involve competitions. And if it's hard for you to separate yourself from your comp results, which it seems like one has to do, especially in light of the way ballroom is judged, maybe competing isn't for you. One reason I don't compete is that I am a competitive person, and I know that a string of bad results would take the fun out of it for me. I prefer things like karaoke, where I can just know I'm bad without having a bad score right in front of me, like with bowling.
If dancing makes you happy, keep dancing. If dancing doesn't make you happy, don't dance. But make sure the question of "does competing make me happy?" remains a separate question from "does dancing make me happy?" Because they don't HAVE to go hand in hand. (For me they certainly don't.)

You seem to have the illusion that the ones who win are the ones who dance best. That's a mistake, the ones who win are the ones who are ranked #1 by the judges. You have to decide what you want and then act accordingly. Take classes with the best teachers if you want to be the best dancers, take classes with teachers who are also judges if you want to win.

I find that rather sad, maybe even cynical newbie. As far as dancesport is concerned overall I think the people who dance best also win. Obviously there are local biases and also obviously putting 'compete' and 'art' in the same sentance is always a push since art has to have an element of individual taste. However, at least at the level most of us are dancing at there are standards of quality that can be applied reasonably consistently.

Have I ever complained about the judging? Sure I have - but its hard to blame results on that alone since why did all the judges go the same way? If Couple A takes lessons from Judge A and couple B from Judge B even according to a biased system any benefit couple A get from Judge A is cancelled by Judge B.

I think its just far healthier to accept the results however they fall and then measure your progress over multiple competitions.

The most you can possibly say is that, for the 15 seconds the judges were looking at your competitors, they found more to like than they did for the 15 seconds they were looking at you. You can't generalize to say that one couple is "better" than the others overall from that 15 seconds, nor can you generalize to say the judges are biased from that 15 seconds. The best thing to do is shake off the annoyance, then get a copy of your judging sheet and see if your coach can help you decipher what might have been missing. For example, in our very first comp, I remember 1s in newcomer smooth waltz from two judges and a 3 from the remaining judge, and our coach explained that the third judge was from a standard background and was likely to be looking at footwork above all else. So we spent the next months working on neatening up the footwork.

1. Results don't matter; dancing, and only dancing is what matters.

2. When you think another couple is the same as you are, they are better. When you think they are one level below you are, you guys are the same. Only when you are wayyyyyyy above them, you can beat them with no doubt. So keep practicing and beat your bronze opponents with your gold technique and bronze routines. That's the only way to go.

Right on Yuan! I like your style...

Ginger said:

I am a long time viewer of this site and find it a real help in my dancing. I suppose I could do with a bit more help this morning though.

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Hi Ginger, glad you decided to post!

Ginger said:

We have put in the work made no mistakes and danced our best. Our teachers are at a loss which really is of no help to us.

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It is disappointing to think that you danced your best and did not gain the results you were hoping for, yes? But judging is not something we can control, and in my opinion to compete successfully you have to concentrate on what you can control - your own dancing.

Others in the thread have mentioned the same, but what I'd like to make a point of is, being disappointed is a natural reaction, but it shouldn't be so deep that it discourages you from continuing your journey. If it is, too much emphasis is being put upon the results.

Use the situation as a spur to find out what you need to improve and keep moving forward. Remember one success is made from many failures.

And next time, consider setting your own goals for your dancing in the competition other than results. You can control that. Seeing your own progress and improvement each competition will encourage you to continue dancing for the reasons you originally started in it for.

Best of luck to you Ginger!