Macho and cultural differences.

bordertangoman

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
" in Spanish, "macho" doesn't mean arrogant or exaggerated, it just means, "masculine." It's English and anglo-saxon society that has made it a negative term.

"I too believe tango is a conversation--but not between 2 girlfriends, or mother and son, or 2 buddies from work--but between a man and a woman. Her femininity speaks as loudly as his masculinity, and together they create something wonderful and new (well ok, if I use the analogy of a baby that's pretty corny and extreme, but you see what I'm getting at.)

I don't at all feel dominated and submissive when I dance; I feel an equal partner in my feminine way--I don't need to "compete" with my partner, because we are doing different things, equally important.

I sure don't want to assume the "masculine" role of leading on the dance floor, because dancing for me is a break from all the decision-making and life choices and traffic handling that I do all the rest of the time.

I like the conversation to be a flirtation, a meeting of different energies, which say, "Let's see where the music will take us!"from
http://tangotrails.blogspot.com/2008/08/machismo-and-tango-my-2-centavos_25.html

Are us gringos ever going to dance tango convincingly if we dont accept more masculine/feminine roles? (Discuss)
 
You'll obviously have to stop leading then : it's "unnatural" :rolleyes:

I think it's more a case of taking of embracing your role than being "macho" isnt it?

Anyway we all know there is a type of female macho. If I can divert for a moment into song (tra la la!) :

"
And there's times I think I see you
When I find that kind of face
When a woman's independance
Has kept a woman's grace
Where confidence and pride
Refuse to know their place
Or hide behind the easy tricks of beauty

....

From the Cuillins tae the Carolinas
Strong women rule us all
With the courage that they call
When the tears refuse to fall
From their eyes
"
(Brian MacNeill , "Strong Women Rule us All")
 
Captain Jep said:
I think it's more a case of taking of embracing your role than being "macho" isnt it?
Click to expand...

Quite.

Captain Jep said:
And there's times I think I see you
When I find that kind of face
When a woman's independance
Has kept a woman's grace
Where confidence and pride
Refuse to know their place
Or hide behind the easy tricks of beauty

From the Cuillins tae the Carolinas
Strong women rule us all
With the courage that they call
When the tears refuse to fall
From their eyes
Click to expand...

Cor, that's nice.
 
bordertangoman said:
Are us gringos ever going to dance tango convincingly if we dont accept more masculine/feminine roles? (Discuss)
Click to expand...

That's a pretty loaded question, and I think offensive as well. I know you play it tongue in cheek but this one crossed the line. :confused:
 
Hahaha. When I started to lead, I very soon discovered, to my surprise, that it had absolutely nothing to do with being dominant.

Fortunately for all of us, there are many ways of being a man and being a woman. After all, women are men like anybody else (and the opposite is true, too :) ).
Whose who learn both how to lead and follow in tango ( personally, I think its indispensable while learning a partner dance), eventually find out that those roles and goals are basically the same -- to connect with the partner, with the music, and move as one.
That's said, the cultural differences do exist, and affect how people learn and interact in a context of tango. But in my opinion they go way beyond gender stereotypes.
 
bordertangoman said:
i Dont suppose women lead in Bs As outside of gay clubs, but I could be wrong."
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Apparently they do. Even straight ones.

All this "macho", "be a man" stuff I don't agree with. What, to my mind, tops them all is (to your follower) to be kind, sensitive, intuitive and sympathetic. Followed by: connection, techique, good signal etc. And now I'm heading into Deja Vu terrority.
 
bordertangoman said:
Are us gringos ever going to dance tango convincingly if we dont accept more masculine/feminine roles?
Click to expand...

There are many a good male dancer that only dances the lead and many a good lady that only dances as the Follower. It isn't about embracing or accepting the role of one's opposite. You hear the music and you dance. Basta. There are places outside the milonga that cater for those who need to get in touch with the inner Y or X. :rolleyes:
 
Heather2007 said:
Apparently they do. Even straight ones.

All this "macho", "be a man" stuff I don't agree with. What, to my mind, tops them all is (to your follower) to be kind, sensitive, intuitive and sympathetic. Followed by: connection, techique, good signal etc. And now I'm heading into Deja Vu terrority.
Click to expand...

I have anecdotal evidence of some Totnes ladies being very popular amongst the Argentine women after they had done a bit of leading. They did ask permission before they started showing their stuff though. *sigh* Wish I could be as good a leader as them.

My personal take on it is that you have to be assertive and willing take risks (such as asking a woman to dance). It's about knowing your worth. Telling guys to be macho is fairly complete shorthand for this, although it does have other connotations too, like trying too hard and posturing.
 
.. Yes I agree ... it's a shame we have to use the word "macho" rather than "being a gentleman" - but the latter has become so watered down and made suspect these days that it doesnt have the force I think it used to.

As far as asking someone for a dance goes, I'd say, hide behind any label you like. If it helps you get over being rejected, so much the better!
 
bordertangoman said:
http://tangotrails.blogspot.com/2008/08/machismo-and-tango-my-2-centavos_25.html

Are us gringos ever going to dance tango convincingly if we dont accept more masculine/feminine roles? (Discuss)
Click to expand...
The next post in that thread was interesting as well. In addition to "macho" having a different connotation, also the term "surrender", has a different spin as well.

I agree with Cherie - I think the word "macho" is widely misunderstood in modern non-latin society.

Macho, to me, means manly. masculine. Like I said in my last post. I like to feel cared for by a strong manly man in tango - I like to be the princess and he gets to be my knight in shining armor.
I like to be the woman and I like him to be the man.

I don't feel that that's submissive. When I say I "submit" I mean that I "surrender" myself. entrega - essential in tango.

I like that you mentioned conversation - in real like talk, I am a big chatter box. I have to work really hard to make sure I don't dominate conversations. It's a big challenge. I can yap yap yap away if I'm not careful.

So the nice thing about Tango for me, is that it's the one time where I can metaphorically "shut my mouth" and let the other person talk.

Of course I get to respond (with my body) but it really means a lot to me to let the man lead and have a slightly more active role than me. It's not that I'm not active, but I must admit that I do like to be slightly passive (slightly). It's been great for me, psychologically. Teaches me about conversations since I do tend to take over.
 
kieronneedscake said:
I have anecdotal evidence of some Totnes ladies being very popular amongst the Argentine women after they had done a bit of leading. They did ask permission before they started showing their stuff though. *sigh* Wish I could be as good a leader as them.
Click to expand...

Interesting remark by the way - I wasnt aware of many of them being leaders. Apart from the tall bird that is. I'll have to keep an eye out...
 
Me said:
That's a pretty loaded question, and I think offensive as well. I know you play it tongue in cheek but this one crossed the line. :confused:
Click to expand...

its tongue in cheek but its a serious question. I think there are some very fine women leaders out there who dance as well as any man, but I think in this particular (uk) culture some men struggle with the dance because of more broader social and cultural identity issues, and perhaps the more alpha males in society arent going to take up dancing in the first place.

Why do you find it offensive?
 
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