competition Standard slow foxtrot timing

waltzguy

Active Member
I see most world top couples dance Standard slow foxtrot off-time, like on WSSS DVDs. In my opinion, this is the best way to show the grace and continuity of steps like Feather Step and Three Step.

Question for you competitors or judges out there: At a closed-syllabus level, should us competitors stick to strict timing, or show the grace of slow steps but be off-music?

It all boils down to technique versus musicality, IMO.
 
I see most world top couples dance Standard slow foxtrot off-time

This is not off time, rather the opposite - it's showing a more musically mature understanding of timing. Foxtrot is a swing dance not a rhythm one, we don't time the footfalls to match the percussion, we time the swings to match the harmonic meter.

In my opinion, this is the best way to show the grace and continuity of steps like Feather Step and Three Step.

That it is.

Question for you competitors or judges out there: At a closed-syllabus level, should us competitors stick to strict timing, or show the grace of slow steps but be off-music?

For SQQ figures you should dance the music, not the percussion. For certain types of syncopations you might want to hit more rhythmic accents.

The only setting in which you might want to do otherwise would be an exam, and even then I hope you would have an examiner who would like to see musical dancing rather than mechanical dancing.

It all boils down to technique versus musicality, IMO.

No, it boils down to clockwork vs. musicality.
 
I also agree that the timing of FT steps in events such as WSS are not off time. Here's my take of how, in general (underlined), the timing works. Instead of counting SQQ, you need to count 1, 2, 3, 4. In fact, it's probably better if you count &1, &2, &3, &4. What you're trying to do is take the first step using the full measure of the slow, that is, on count 2. So after the preceding count 4 (step 3) where you are up, you are doing a lowering action (downswing) on count &1 (step 1) and doing a rising action (upswing) on count &2. You stay up on counts &3, &4 (steps 2 and 3) and then lower into the next &1. Now I'm sure there is artistic license by some people to modify the timing of certain steps in FT, but in general, I think this is how it works.

Why do they time the FT is this way? I think it's to make for a more constant motion of the body through all the steps. In general, the first step is longer than the last 2 steps. If your body is moving at a constant rate through all 4 beats, it looks like you are floating along as you do the foxtrot and it doesn't look like your horizontal speed is varying that much. Now I know a lot of people do step on count 1 of slow in FT. Most noticeable in American style continuity FT (Silver and above). You see that a lot at comps. It's not clear to me which count (1 or 2) is best to step slow for American continuity FT. If you were at a comp, since most everyone is stepping on count 1, maybe you should too? But for Intl FT, stepping on count 2 is more universal I think.

Don't know what others think about this, but this is my take on FT timing.
 
But for Intl FT, stepping on count 2 is more universal I think.

Don't know what others think about this, but this is my take on FT timing.



So let me get this clear.. you believe the 1st beat of the bar is ignored ? ( as in first of feather "S" )... then how would you apply the theory of.. " thrust " and " swing ".. thrust being the action of the body that creates the dynamic for the " swing ".. the "1" being the commencing action of the body as it prepares to move fwd into the Swing..( swing as leg action ).

I think the statement might infer, that the body is NOT preparing the dynamics required to effect a smooth transition between the required motions .
The Thrust action should be felt but NOT seen,, the blending of these separate actions give the motion its fluidity .

It was always taught to me by the past champs. that shading the timing ( slightly BEHIND the beat ) creates the look of effortlessness.

Lens fav. phrase... "measure the slow and Swing 2 quicks."
 
So let me get this clear.. you believe the 1st beat of the bar is ignored ? ...

No, I don't think I said the 1st beat is ignored. I said there is a lowering action (downswing) on the &1 which turns into rising action (upswing) on the &2. I don't think this is inconsistent with the term "thrust and swing". This is the first time I've heard this term, but it sounds similar in concept to what I think I was intending. Any further comment?
 
Pruthe you have the right basic idea - it's about the swings. You can measure when the feet are falling, but this information isn't necessarily useful to learning how to dance it. What I think works is to get the feeling of a well proportioned swing cycle figured out, and then find the place where that as a whole feels settled in relation to the music.

I think that trying to use the music as a metronome to pace the foot actions of foxtrot is probably one of the greatest artificial impediments to learning to dance it. This is for two reasons - one, nobody tells you the precise truth of the timing they are dancing, so you end up trying to do the wrong thing. And second, most foxtrot timing problems are actually physical problems with sustaining movement. It does little good to know you shouldn't step yet, if your choices are step or fall on your partner. There are some things that need to be worked out in the feet before good timing and smooth movement are really possible.

As you noticed, some of the first beat is used finishing the previous action. Actually, a little of it is used even in placing the foot for the last quick. Probably the reason you are seeing people landing the slow early is that those who have to incorporate many different elements in dancing tend not to stretch out that last quick as much in time as those who are free to concentrate on quality of movement.
 
No, I don't think I said the 1st beat is ignored. I said there is a lowering action (downswing) on the &1 which turns into rising action (upswing) on the &2. I don't think this is inconsistent with the term "thrust and swing". This is the first time I've heard this term, but it sounds similar in concept to what I think I was intending. Any further comment?

Guess I mis understood..

that term has been around for over 40 plus yrs.. and, no further comments, think we are essentially in agreement .
 
when I am dancing FT my best in competition, I am feeling the rhythm as " & S S "...and neither of the slows are on the beat, but the first slow slightly before the beat and the second one slightly after.

course, that is ideally secondary to syncing with my partner... I have only had this experience with my pro, but that's roughly how he does it so I match.
 
I think practically speaking there are two ways to learn it...

1) stumble around trying various impractical things for (months to years) before finally getting it

2) pick up the feel of it from someone who already has it, by dancing with them
 
wanted to add... I used to turn myself in knots trying to break down where the &s and everything coordinated to the movement, but my instructor taught me to bag that approach and go with a more holistic approach. and a coach explained the value of the &-S-S timing...so for me, what I described above, is as complicated as I get with it.

rather than making it rocket science, now I go by feel...with much better success.
 
wanted to add... I used to turn myself in knots trying to break down where the &s and everything coordinated to the movement, but my instructor taught me to bag that approach and go with a more holistic approach. and a coach explained the value of the &-S-S timing...so for me, what I described above, is as complicated as I get with it.

rather than making it rocket science, now I go by feel...with much better success.

In the &SS, more or less, is the and 1 and 2? and the ss are 3 and 4?
 
That doesn't add up to anything plausible.

Generally I think "feeling words" may be a better way to communicate the idea of foxtrot timing, but please don't use actual numbers that way... it makes my head hurt.
 
No, that doesn't work either

It's not being specified if the numbers are points in time or durations of time, but neither way does it work out.
 

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