Hip joint flexion during lowering action

When executing a forward moving action in standard, during the lowering phase, how much should the hip joint flex?

Clearly, the ankle and knee flex, but if the hip flexes too much it seems that the hips will not move forward sufficiently to create a correct and strong movement forward, but rather, it will drop back, not a good idea.

Additionally, what are the ramifications on pressure to the knee as a result?

Josh said:

When executing a forward moving action in standard, during the lowering phase, how much should the hip joint flex?

Clearly, the ankle and knee flex, but if the hip flexes too much it seems that the hips will not move forward sufficiently to create a correct and strong movement forward, but rather, it will drop back, not a good idea.

Additionally, what are the ramifications on pressure to the knee as a result?

Click to expand...

I would suggest that it depends on what type of movement you want to make. In my experience, greater flexion of the hip leads to a greater pre-stretch in the muscles and connective tissues of the glutes and hamstrings, which in turn will yield a mor powerful contraction during the projection phase of the movement. How much you flex the hips would then depend on how powerfully you want to project forward. I feel it more distinctly in Tango than in the other standard dances.

As long as you have sufficient flexibility in the hips and ankles, and your alignment is good, I think the risk to the knees is fairly low

(wierding out everyone in my bus line)

Bringing up tango is important - the hip can be further behind the knee in a compressed tango stance than I think would generally be appropriate for a comparable altitude on the way down in the swing dances. And tango tends to prefer the directions of movement in which there's room for the knee and foot to precede the body. Also, since we're not descending into this compressed position repeatedly during the dance, there's no action of sitting back against the travel, we're simple a bit further back throught the entire dance.

For lowering in the swing dances, I'd like to see the hip kept as closely behind the knee as possible, so that a lowering has as much forward travel as is consistent with TH still including a touch down of the heel.

Does this look like a good amount of hip flexion for tango?


That's a snapshot of the Hilliers as world champions, after lowering from the second quick in the foxtrot feather step. I think they used as much hip flexion in foxtrot as in tango.

Here's a shot of an up and coming couple of the period at the same point in the foxtrot, a couple years before they won the foxtrot at the British Open, showing almost as much hip flexion. Notice how you can see Lorraine's dress between Andrew's knee and his tailsuit tail:


The weight should ideally lower solidly into the heel on forward travelling steps, and the amount of associated hip flexion is significant, if fleeting. The important point is that the flexion should come entirely from the knee being ahead of the hip - it may not feel like as much flexion as it is because the rest of the torso should also be over the hip at that point, and not forward of it.

....

The hip flexion of the person moving forwards should be based/timed with the person moving backwards...the more movement the backward mover has,the more the hip will flex / swing into the movement.

hereKittyKitty said:

The hip flexion of the person moving forwards should be based/timed with the person moving backwards...the more movement the backward mover has,the more the hip will flex / swing into the movement.

Click to expand...

Actually its the other way around. The human body is much more suited to the backwards version of the lowering action, so the person with the easy job needs to accomodate the person with the harder job.

Warren J. Dew said:

That's a snapshot of the Hilliers as world champions, after lowering from the second quick in the foxtrot feather step. I think they used as much hip flexion in foxtrot as in tango.

Click to expand...

In your picture of the Hillers, his left hip joint is obviously flexed because the knee has pulled the femur forward, but I'm not so sure about his right, which is his supporting leg. I can see that it has some flexion, but this is the source of my inquiry--how much? THIS is the joint I'm talking about, the joint of the hip which is driving the movement, not the joint of the moving leg, which will naturally have more flexion.

Chris Stratton said:

For lowering in the swing dances, I'd like to see the hip kept as closely behind the knee as possible, so that a lowering has as much forward travel as is consistent with TH still including a touch down of the heel.

Click to expand...

"kept as closely behind the knee as possible" -- taken to an extreme (which would not be reasonable, but just for the sake of clarity), as closely behind as possible would equate to zero hip flexion, right?

So I'm going to ballpark an ideal maximum of 10-15 degrees of movement in the joint. Anyone see that number as crazy? Again, I'm talking about the supporting leg, on a lowering action, in the swing dances.

Chris Stratton said:

Actually its the other way around. The human body is much more suited to the backwards version of the lowering action, so the person with the easy job needs to accomodate the person with the harder job.

Click to expand...

Agreed, but in the case of the man moving backwards, the lady moving forward must still match his timing, not the other way around, yes?

Josh said:

"kept as closely behind the knee as possible" -- taken to an extreme (which would not be reasonable, but just for the sake of clarity), as closely behind as possible would equate to zero hip flexion, right?

Click to expand...

In a waltz lowering from foot closure, it would seem ideal if we could do this. In a separated lowering, I'm not so sure, since we are accomplishing more of our knee descent as we arrive onto the foot rather than only as we depart it.

Agreed, but in the case of the man moving backwards, the lady moving forward must still match his timing, not the other way around, yes?

Click to expand...

He can initiate and request a degree of fullness, but the request had better not exceed her capability. Since forward lowering (especially from closure) is one of the most limiting actions, I expect desired amounts of movement will often be beyond the limit, so practically it becomes an exercise in helping a partner ride the edge of her maximum capability.

Actually, let me rethink that. Knee or ankle only descent produces an overhanded arc, but the desired ending trajectory is that of an underhanded arc, and while the initial trajectory is overhanded for foot apart, its underhanded from foot closure. So figuring out the amount of hip flexion needed to create an underhanded trajectory might be a guide.

Josh said:

In your picture of the Hillers, his left hip joint is obviously flexed because the knee has pulled the femur forward, but I'm not so sure about his right, which is his supporting leg. I can see that it has some flexion, but this is the source of my inquiry--how much?

Click to expand...

You can see the right foot on the floor in that picture, and the part of Lindsay's dress just ahead of the tails is behind both knees, and underneath both hips. That means the right knee is at least as far forward as the left knee, so the right hip is at least as flexed.

In fact, the right hip is probably slightly more flexed than the left hip because the right hip is lower. That's more obvious in the picture of Sinkinson, but if you look carefully, it's also true of the picture of Hillier.

Josh said:

Additionally, what are the ramifications on pressure to the knee as a result?

Click to expand...

When lowering it must be part of the action of moving forward or backward. When moving forward, the weight is leaving the leg, taking pressure off the knee. There is a trap of trying to lower for the sake of lowering, reducing the swing of the action and efficiency too.

Chris Stratton said:

Actually its the other way around. The human body is much more suited to the backwards version of the lowering action, so the person with the easy job needs to accomodate the person with the harder job.

Click to expand...

I can't agree that the human body is more suited to move backwards. "Technically" you can take a bigger step backward, but I'd like to see your posture when you try to take that bigger step! Once you qualify with posture, the forward step is always easier, including the lowering and swinging.

The weakest part of the action is always the backward mover, and therefore the backward mover sets the distance. I think there can be a misconception that if the man somehow drives more or lowers more or leads more or pushes more or otherwise does more, the woman will somehow magically move bigger backward. And just like the women, the men can be well served realizing they are often the weak link when they are moving backward.

DanceMentor said:

When lowering it must be part of the action of moving forward or backward. When moving forward, the weight is leaving the leg, taking pressure off the knee. There is a trap of trying to lower for the sake of lowering, reducing the swing of the action and efficiency too.

Click to expand...

I suspect that the force on the knee inceeases substantially before it decreases.