Swingout vs. Whip

Just as little Savoy history,
The authentic Savoy Whip that was danced by Street Swing dancers in the
1950's in Hollywood was only a five step/count move done to 4 Quarter beats.
The Savoy Whip was executed with the lady being drawn into the man on the 1
&2 (3 steps) as the man completed half (180 ) turn to his right; the Whip
was a two step move (1-2) where the lady stepped around to the man's right
shoulder ending up in open position finishing with 3 &4 (3 steps) in an
open position facing the ma having completed a 360 degree turn with eight
steps taken on a total six quarter beats.
The move was counted
(1,2,3,) (1-2) (1,2,3) = (2 Quarter beats) (2 Q beats) (2Q beats) =
total: 6 Q beats
The 8 count Swingout was an innovation that appeared in the late 1980's
early 1990's when Swing enjoyed a revival. The difference in the moves is
that the 8 count Swingout is slower and easier to teach, but the 8 count
Swingout lacks the quick snap throw out that the 6 count Whip has. To me,
the 8 count Swing out is just a basic step throwing the lady out to the
man's right instead of to his left.
The 8 count Swingout ain't got that Swing that the 6 count Whip has. And
like the Duke said, "If it ain't got that swing, then it don't mean a
thing!"

I'm curious on your version of how the Savoy Ballroom's style came to Hollywood, and what changes that it went through.

I'm also interested in your explanation of how an 1980's variation can be seen as the staple move in all of the Savoy footage that exists from the depression era news clips up to the documentry "The Spirit Moves" (1950) as well as the footage of the Savoy's lead dancers, Whitey's Lindy Hop teams, in motion pictures and soundies. Also interesting is the footage of the Harvest Moon Ball's Lindy Hop division also shows this staple move.

Dean Collin's changing Swing styles

The name Dean Collins will always be tied to the authentic Savoy Lindy style in the Los Angels area. He changed his style from the Arthur Murray Swing in the 1940's to the New York Savoy Lindy in the 1950's. This change of style from the 1940's to the new Savoy of the 1950's is easily corroborated by dancers still alive and well and I might add very numerous.
What dancers copied of Dean's dancing in the 1943 films was Dean's Arthur Murray style that anybody could have picked up with a few lessons at any Arthur Murray studio. Unfortunately, there weren't any films of Dean dancing after the 1940's except in on the Steve Allen 1980's TV Production 'In the Swing'.
The bottom line: Dancers who copied the Dean Collins Swing from the 1940's films, never had the experience of seeing Dean when he really danced the authentic Savoy Lindy that he taught at my 'Hollywood Dance Club' from 1954 to 1956. Too bad!'
Black Sheep

Interesting... so the dancing he did earlier in his career, after he moved from the East Coast, where he danced at the Savoy Ballroom, was not authentic Savoy Style Lindy Hop, but Arthur Murray style swing? However the dance he did ten years later was authentic Savoy Style Lindy Hop?

What do you classify as "authentic" Savoy Style Lindy Hop? I know a number of people who danced at the Savoy who consider his dancing in Hellzapoppin' and Buck Privates, etc. to be Lindy Hop, certainly of a different flavor, but absolutely authentic.

Is this what he told you? Sylvia Sykes, Rob Van Haaren, and Martin Parker who studied under him have a different opinion... One derived specifically from numerous training and practice sessions with him. Next time I see Melinda I'll have to ask her about it. I didn't think this was a matter of conflict with anyone or I would have asked Jean when I met her.

Could you give some more particulars?

Interesting enough... Dean's wife said he gave Private Lesson's to Arthur Murray. If this is true, then I think it could be argued that Arthur Murray's swing as Dean's swing, or at least inspired/shaped by it. Considering the time frame it was most likely going to contain a higher degreree of relation to what was happening at the Savoy Ballroom.

*shurg*

But I await your insights.

history Lesson for D'nice

Mr. D'nice'
You ask me so many questions. I see you are seriously trying to get educated about the Swing History, so I'll help you as best as I can. If you really want the inside dope on the Hollywood Swing History of the 1950's, check my back log of Swing Commentaries.
Oh yes, Incredibly I happened to be with Mary when Dean told us he gave Arthur Murray A lesson in Swing, but as usual as an Armature Historian, you did not ask the right follow up questions so you got an answer out of context and out of chronological order. That incident with Arthur Murray took place in the 1940's. And for your homework notes, Arthur Murray also took lessons from Myrna Myron in the pre 1950's and probably from many other teachers during the pre historic Swing era. Although Myrna, my close friend since 1949 passed away in 2001, her son Jim Myron was present when she told the Arthur Murray story. For your edification, you can contact Jim at his Grand Ballroom in downtown L. A.. Sorry I can't give you his private phone number; it's only for close friends and family.
Please get your facts right by asking the right questions next time if you want any more help from me. And don't be so evasively cute; come right out and ask me whatever you need to know to fill in those huge gaps in your naive WCS Swing History. But keep in mind, 'It's foolish to contradict a man who has integrity and a memory like a bear trap'.
Your Mentor and friend,
Joe Lanza

Hahaha... I was being tongue in cheek there Joe. However... it begs the question... If Arthur Murray was taking privates from Dean, then please explain how Dean was doing Arthur's Swing and not authentic Savoy Lindy Hop.

Again... none of this is really West Coast Swing History, so much as pre-West Coast Swing history, it is Lindy Hop History. You still haven't answered my question how the swing-out/whip/lindy-turn was filmed in footage from the depression-era news reels, when you maintain it was a late 80's innovation.

If you can't explain this you realize you damage your stance about Lindy Hop History. This appears to be a huge glaring error in you interpretation of Swing History.

I mean if you are wrong about the primary move in lindy hop and when it was developed, it pretty much brings into question your credibility about Lindy Hop in general doesn't it?

I mean as it is, all the survivng members of Whitey's Lindy Hoppers disagree with you, all the film footage disagrees with you, and the dancers from the Savoy whom I've met disagree with you.

Considering you never danced at the Savoy Ballroom can you give me a reason to take your word about something over those who did?

Too many questions!

D'.nice speaks through side of mouth with tongue in cheek! Ugh ! Many moons will pass before the the clouds open up for our young worrieor who hides in blanket.
lllack Sheep

Re: Too many questions!

Black Sheep said:

D'.nice speaks through side of mouth with tongue in cheek! Ugh ! Many moons will pass before the the clouds open up for our young worrieor who hides in blanket.
lllack Sheep

Click to expand...

Rhetorical fun aside, do you have a substantive response to his questions?

d nice said:

II'm also interested in your explanation of how an 1980's variation can be seen as the staple move in all of the Savoy footage that exists from the depression era news clips up to the documentry "The Spirit Moves" (1950) as well as the footage of the Savoy's lead dancers, Whitey's Lindy Hop teams, in motion pictures and soundies. Also interesting is the footage of the Harvest Moon Ball's Lindy Hop division also shows this staple move.

Click to expand...

Good questions, good questions.

For those interested, "The Spirit Moves" is a great collection of many premiere Savoy Ballroom dancers demonstrating & social dancing Jazz & Blues both inside the Savoy and in-studio. And it's commercially available now, finally released from New York libraries - it's a great video for anyone seriously wanting to watch the history of ANY Jazz dance done today.

You can ask your library to order it, that's what they're there for, or you can pick it up for yourself through the SavoyStyle website.

-FF

I think it is interesting that what Joe describes as the "authentic Savoy whip" starts with a triple step...

Could it be that he is ignoring the one-two which certain styles of the lindy hop do in place rather than rocking back or traveling forward, is starting his count on what the rest of the lindy hop world refers to as the three & four, where the partners meet, turn together, the step-step, being the normal five-six: redirect then part, and the last triple being the 7 & 8: where the partners movement continues as they resume their former positions.

Of course it does make one wonder what those two "holding" counts would be considered.

To bad so many of these questions were left unanswered. I take the blame for putting them in the middle of posts instead of listed seperately for easy reading and remembering. I'm still interested in how this modern innovation was filmed being done by so many of the Savoy Lindy Hoppers in the Thirties.

I have another question... this one is real short and to the point, and its answer will probably disuade me from contradicting your history of Lindy Hop. Why in the clips of George Snowden dancing the Lindy Hop does he never do the six count step you describe as the basic Lindy Hop step, but instead executes Swing Outs and Lindy Turns?