Proficiency Point Rules: The Mystery!
- Thread starter Kitty
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Chris Stratton
New Member
From the USABDA rulebook:
Under the USABDA system, you place out of a level once you have accumulated 3 points in it. Somewhere else it mentions that you also place out of a level by winning it at USABDA Nationals - ie, Nationals is worth 3 points. "Recognized Competition" currently means anything with a USABDA or NDCA sanction - unsanctioned college comps don't count.
Given the frequent lack of semifinals, people accumulate USABDA points _very_ slowly.
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YCN/NECN or collegiate points are a fairly different system. Here you can dance in a level until you earn 7 points, but they are easier to get.
from memory:
a) if a semifinal was danced, 1st place gets you 3 points, 2nd place 2 points, and 3rd place one point
b) if a quarterfinal was danced, 4-6th places also earn you 1 point.
c) Points earned in one level are worth twice as much in the next level down, and 7 points in every level below that. So earning one point in gold counts as 2 in silver, and 7 in bronze.
d) Regardless of all these details, if you have placed out of a level under the USABDA/NDCA system you are not allowed to dance that level under the collegiate system either.
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Here's where it gets complicated:
Collegiate points are generally calculated based on the results of all the organized but unsanctioned college comps someone has entered. Many people have also done USABDA or NDCA adult comps, and there is a disagreement about how to handle that. The people USABDA appointed to advise YCN say that 1 USABDA point should translate as 1 YCN point. But a lot of the collegiate teams (who as comp organizers hold the only real power) think that makes no sense as it's a lot harder to earn points at an adult comp than at a collegiate one. Instead, for the purposes of elgibiliity at something like the MIT comp, you have to calculate collegiate points for your USABDA and NDCA placings as if they had been collegiate comps (so, first gets you 3 points, not 1).
Hang on, we're not done yet:
There are also a few collegiate competitions, such as Harvard and sometimes BU, which base elgibility decisions on USABDA/NDCA points, rather than collegiate points. But because these competitions are not sanctioned by either of those bodies, they cannot award points under that system. So you could theoretically win a category every year at Harvard and never place out of it. Despite the fact that these comps don't look at collegiate points, the other collegiate comps consider placing at them to award collegiate points.
Under the USABDA system, you place out of a level once you have accumulated 3 points in it. Somewhere else it mentions that you also place out of a level by winning it at USABDA Nationals - ie, Nationals is worth 3 points. "Recognized Competition" currently means anything with a USABDA or NDCA sanction - unsanctioned college comps don't count.
Given the frequent lack of semifinals, people accumulate USABDA points _very_ slowly.
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YCN/NECN or collegiate points are a fairly different system. Here you can dance in a level until you earn 7 points, but they are easier to get.
from memory:
a) if a semifinal was danced, 1st place gets you 3 points, 2nd place 2 points, and 3rd place one point
b) if a quarterfinal was danced, 4-6th places also earn you 1 point.
c) Points earned in one level are worth twice as much in the next level down, and 7 points in every level below that. So earning one point in gold counts as 2 in silver, and 7 in bronze.
d) Regardless of all these details, if you have placed out of a level under the USABDA/NDCA system you are not allowed to dance that level under the collegiate system either.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's where it gets complicated:
Collegiate points are generally calculated based on the results of all the organized but unsanctioned college comps someone has entered. Many people have also done USABDA or NDCA adult comps, and there is a disagreement about how to handle that. The people USABDA appointed to advise YCN say that 1 USABDA point should translate as 1 YCN point. But a lot of the collegiate teams (who as comp organizers hold the only real power) think that makes no sense as it's a lot harder to earn points at an adult comp than at a collegiate one. Instead, for the purposes of elgibiliity at something like the MIT comp, you have to calculate collegiate points for your USABDA and NDCA placings as if they had been collegiate comps (so, first gets you 3 points, not 1).
Hang on, we're not done yet:
There are also a few collegiate competitions, such as Harvard and sometimes BU, which base elgibility decisions on USABDA/NDCA points, rather than collegiate points. But because these competitions are not sanctioned by either of those bodies, they cannot award points under that system. So you could theoretically win a category every year at Harvard and never place out of it. Despite the fact that these comps don't look at collegiate points, the other collegiate comps consider placing at them to award collegiate points.
Laura
Well-Known Member
Chris has got the situation covered, but let me just add one tiny thing: not all USABDA competitions are point-granting. My club runs three per year that are "club level." We run them under USABDA rules, but we don't have a sanction to grant points. We purposely have these small, low key comps so as to give people a training ground for moving on to higher levels of competition.
I believe that a point-granting competition in USABDA is required to state somewhere in their promotional and registration materials that it is in fact a point-granting event.
One more thing: I keep running into people who mistakenly think that they can't move up until they've earned the three points. That is not true at all. You can dance at any higher level you want. The points are just there to make people who have achieved something on a lower level move on up. You don't have to start at Bronze, you don't have to work your way up through the syllabus levels. It's all up to you, your partner, and hopefully your coach will have some good input too.
I believe that a point-granting competition in USABDA is required to state somewhere in their promotional and registration materials that it is in fact a point-granting event.
One more thing: I keep running into people who mistakenly think that they can't move up until they've earned the three points. That is not true at all. You can dance at any higher level you want. The points are just there to make people who have achieved something on a lower level move on up. You don't have to start at Bronze, you don't have to work your way up through the syllabus levels. It's all up to you, your partner, and hopefully your coach will have some good input too.
Chris Stratton
New Member
Hmm, would a New England collegiate comp consider NorCal's club competition to award collegiate points????
(The decision on something like this is made by the comp that one is trying to determine elgibility for, though the way the comps being examined characterize themselves would be a factor)
(The decision on something like this is made by the comp that one is trying to determine elgibility for, though the way the comps being examined characterize themselves would be a factor)
Laura
Well-Known Member
In my opinion Chris, they should not. So come out here in January and visit us (that's when our next non-point-granting comp is). Or come in November, for our first-ever California State Amateur DanceSport Championships 
It's open to all comers, as far as I know. (It grants points, though.)
It's open to all comers, as far as I know. (It grants points, though.)What about this one, it always gets me confused:
If a person places in one of the dances, does it grant as many points under YCN as winning a multidance event?
So if I place third in bronse cha-cha, and then rumba, and then jive at the same comp, would I earn three times as many points as if I placed in a tree-dance event cha/rumba/jive?
If a person places in one of the dances, does it grant as many points under YCN as winning a multidance event?
So if I place third in bronse cha-cha, and then rumba, and then jive at the same comp, would I earn three times as many points as if I placed in a tree-dance event cha/rumba/jive?
Chris Stratton
New Member
Under both collegiate and adult systems you track points in each dance individually.
So for example, you get 2nd at a collegiate comp in bronze rumba with a semifinal, you get 2 points in rumba and none in anything else.
The next weekend, you win a chacha/rumba event at another college comp with a semi. That gets you 3 points in both cha and rumba. So you now have 5 in rumba and 3 in cha.
The next weekend you get 2nd in a rumba/jive event, for two points each.
Now you have 7 points in rumba and can no longer dance that at bronze, 3 points in cha, and 2 in jive. You can continue to dance bronze cha and jive, but you cannot enter a multi-dance bronze event that includes rumba. Some comps might let you enter rumba at silver and the others at bronze, wheras some might only have multi-dance events or some other situation that would force you to do all your latin dances at silver.
So for example, you get 2nd at a collegiate comp in bronze rumba with a semifinal, you get 2 points in rumba and none in anything else.
The next weekend, you win a chacha/rumba event at another college comp with a semi. That gets you 3 points in both cha and rumba. So you now have 5 in rumba and 3 in cha.
The next weekend you get 2nd in a rumba/jive event, for two points each.
Now you have 7 points in rumba and can no longer dance that at bronze, 3 points in cha, and 2 in jive. You can continue to dance bronze cha and jive, but you cannot enter a multi-dance bronze event that includes rumba. Some comps might let you enter rumba at silver and the others at bronze, wheras some might only have multi-dance events or some other situation that would force you to do all your latin dances at silver.
ok, thanks Chris.
I just remember a girl who entered newcomer for one smooth dance and bronse for another smooth dance and silver for something standard telling me that she hasn't been dancing that particular smooth dance until 2 months ago, she is dancing that other smooth dance for a year, and she won the standard one in bronze at several comps. That didn't seem right.
So theoretically one could dance gold 4-dance and bronze paso?
I just remember a girl who entered newcomer for one smooth dance and bronse for another smooth dance and silver for something standard telling me that she hasn't been dancing that particular smooth dance until 2 months ago, she is dancing that other smooth dance for a year, and she won the standard one in bronze at several comps. That didn't seem right.
So theoretically one could dance gold 4-dance and bronze paso?
Chris Stratton
New Member
Some comps have level-split rules that say that you cannot dance in more than two adjacent levels. Under USABDA rules this applies only within a style and only with the same partner - but at some collegiate comps it would apply between standard and smooth or even standard and latin, even with different partners.
The time limits on some collegiate categories also vary in their definition. At New England comps it's usually global - counting from the first competition-oriented lesson in any of the 19 dances and applying to all the others. In NY, it appears to be treated per style.
The time limits on some collegiate categories also vary in their definition. At New England comps it's usually global - counting from the first competition-oriented lesson in any of the 19 dances and applying to all the others. In NY, it appears to be treated per style.
Another discrepancy is age levels. In a situation I witnessed, a couple won Novice (in USABDA this is the first level of open) in age level A, (19 and over). They also won Senior 1, (35 and over) 3 times. The "A" age level point also moves to Senior 1 but Senior 1 points don't go down. So this couple actually had 1 point in Novice A and 4 points in Senior 1.
With the overwhelming amount of points, this couple danced at Nationals and won Novice Senior 1 and had a total of 7 points. (Remember that Nationals technically counts as 3 points.)
With this obvious Monopoly on Novice Senior 1, they were blocking other couples from getting points, so there was a bottleneck forming.
The other problem in American Rhythm Championship and Pre-Championship levels, not many proficiency points get awarded because of so few semi-finals being danced. So there is a situation where comp after comp and regional after regional, the same couples win both levels. I like how the NDCA says you can't dance at the same level at the same comp where you had previously won that level.
With the overwhelming amount of points, this couple danced at Nationals and won Novice Senior 1 and had a total of 7 points. (Remember that Nationals technically counts as 3 points.)
With this obvious Monopoly on Novice Senior 1, they were blocking other couples from getting points, so there was a bottleneck forming.
The other problem in American Rhythm Championship and Pre-Championship levels, not many proficiency points get awarded because of so few semi-finals being danced. So there is a situation where comp after comp and regional after regional, the same couples win both levels. I like how the NDCA says you can't dance at the same level at the same comp where you had previously won that level.
Chris Stratton
New Member
DanceAm said:
Huh? How did they dance a senior 1 novice when the already had 4 points in it????
Or was this a "they said, you said" problem that's not actually about the rules, but about the evidence upon which to enforce them?
Unless someone can find another statement of this in the NDCA rule book, the actual policy appears to be:
1) not an actual NDCA rule, but a recommendation that an organizer declare a local rule
2) pro/am only
3) still only applies with a semifinal:
NDCA Rulebook said:
Laura
Well-Known Member
Ohhh, I really think this has changed over the years and that the recommendation used to say that if the event was merely contested and you win that you shouldn't dance that level at that comp the next year.
Well, I could be remembering wrong, but I really seem to recall that it used to not be specific to semi-final for Pro/Am.
Well, I could be remembering wrong, but I really seem to recall that it used to not be specific to semi-final for Pro/Am.