Ochos Apilado

A

AndaBien

Well-Known Member
Sounds delicious, no? I’m wondering about forward ochos in close-embrace. I notice two general ways of doing them: one maintains the connection of the embrace and one requires that the connection be broken (opened).

Once I get into the embrace, I prefer to not let it break for any reason, so I lead forward ochos by moving sort of backwards relative to my partner, causing her to step forward into the space created. I do this for L or R ochos.

I see some guys lead forward ochos to followers R, by opening the embrace out and using their right elbow to more-or-less push their partners into the ocho. IMO, since this breaks the embrace, it’s less desirable. I also think it’s almost rude to lead a partner this way.

Followers, any comments?
 
I don't like breaking the embrace either. Any ocho can be done in apilado position, regardless of the leader's footwork. He can step back, side, or trade places with me - no need to open the embrace.
 
AndaBien said:
Sounds delicious, no? I’m wondering about forward ochos in close-embrace. I notice two general ways of doing them: one maintains the connection of the embrace and one requires that the connection be broken (opened).

Once I get into the embrace, I prefer to not let it break for any reason, so I lead forward ochos by moving sort of backwards relative to my partner, causing her to step forward into the space created. I do this for L or R ochos.

I see some guys lead forward ochos to followers R, by opening the embrace out and using their right elbow to more-or-less push their partners into the ocho. IMO, since this breaks the embrace, it’s less desirable. I also think it’s almost rude to lead a partner this way.

Followers, any comments?
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Theoretically it should be possible to lead forward ochos in apilado just as one can lead back ones as a "crossed back" variation.

In reality, the few people I know who dance a fairly non-flexible-embrace "milonguero" apilado style don't lead forward ochos nearly as often as other people do. When they do, they typically open the embrace on one side to make room. It's used frequently as a way to pivot a follower into the cross by some. NOt so much as a sequence of several ochos at once.

IMHO (ok... maybe not so much H) forward ochos are really overused by many leaders and often taught too soon. I know of people who got (or teach) forward ochos in lesson 2. Subsequently, those people lead them with a very open embrace and extreme side to side movement with way too much arm lead. Or they travel backwards against the LOD too much.

Good for you for wanting to lead them without a change in the embrace. I know it can be done, because I've been led that way a few times. If you can figure it out, you'll be a rarity.

Also, expect quite a few followers to be totally stymied by the idea of being asked to step forward without the leader opening much space. Followers don't get much good instruction on walking right at (into) another person. Leaders have to address the weirdness of that to lead at all. Followers get away with not doing it much longer. (just as leaders get very little instruction on how to walk backwards with their pressure still forward)
 
Zoopsia59 said:
Theoretically it should be possible to lead forward ochos in apilado just as one can lead back ones as a "crossed back" variation.

In reality, the few people I know who dance a fairly non-flexible-embrace "milonguero" apilado style don't lead forward ochos nearly as often as other people do. When they do, they typically open the embrace on one side to make room. It's used frequently as a way to pivot a follower into the cross by some. NOt so much as a sequence of several ochos at once.

IMHO (ok... maybe not so much H) forward ochos are really overused by many leaders and often taught too soon. I know of people who got (or teach) forward ochos in lesson 2. Subsequently, those people lead them with a very open embrace and extreme side to side movement with way too much arm lead. Or they travel backwards against the LOD too much.

Good for you for wanting to lead them without a change in the embrace. I know it can be done, because I've been led that way a few times. If you can figure it out, you'll be a rarity.

Also, expect quite a few followers to be totally stymied by the idea of being asked to step forward without the leader opening much space. Followers don't get much good instruction on walking right at (into) another person. Leaders have to address the weirdness of that to lead at all. Followers get away with not doing it much longer. (just as leaders get very little instruction on how to walk backwards with their pressure still forward)
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I don't lead this (close embrace linear forward ocho) very often, but it's definitely possible! It's a little like a micro-volcada, though it can be done with a shared axis or without.

As for the follower's forward steps, I think it's more a matter of leaders being unaccustomed to taking back steps (while leading forward steps) than anything the followers are doing. Unless they've practiced a lot, most leaders don't know how to cushion the connection, and they probably didn't pay attention in the early classes when the teachers were explaining to followers how to walk backwards! Add to that the counter-intuitivity of a leader moving himself before giving the lead and floorcraft issues related to walking backwards and things could quickly become unpleasant! However, if done properly, it's very easy to get just about any follower to take any number of forward steps (and feel good about it).
 
Nathan said:
As for the follower's forward steps, I think it's more a matter of leaders being unaccustomed to taking back steps (while leading forward steps) than anything the followers are doing. Unless they've practiced a lot, most leaders don't know how to cushion the connection, and they probably didn't pay attention in the early classes when the teachers were explaining to followers how to walk backwards! Add to that the counter-intuitivity of a leader moving himself before giving the lead and floorcraft issues related to walking backwards and things could quickly become unpleasant! However, if done properly, it's very easy to get just about any follower to take any number of forward steps (and feel good about it).
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Oh i totally agree with everything you say about the leaders and where problems stem from them in this. But believe me when I say that many followers are NOT accustomed to walking straight at the leader, especially as an ocho step. Yes, followers step "forward" in tango reasonably often. However with the proliferation of open embrace and flexible embrace, few are used to stepping right into the leader with the leader that close. They are used to forward steps that take them somewhat around the leader, not straight into him (except maybe that very small forward step in the dreaded 8CB)

I remember a teacher trying to show a step to a class and even the advanced follower demo'ing it with her didn't get it. She commented that she has never seen a follower do it right the first time. It was a "follower is led to sacada the leader" type thing, but the issue was the same thing... the followers are hesitant about stepping right AT the leader with him seeming to be "in the way".

Most every leader I have given a lesson to (and many I've danced with) have this hesitation in the beginning.. they just have to get over it sooner. Followers get away with not dealing with it for a longer time. You may be lucky enough to be dancing with followers who don't have this issue, but other leaders will find their mileage varies quite a bit from yours.
 
Re: micro-volcada

Hi AndaBien, first somthing technical, then my opinion on it.

You do not say anything about the angle. (I will leave out fwd8s to the closed side, they require a different technique)

If you lead a fwd8 to the (subjective) left side direction, it is possible, but requires a lot of dissociation for the follower and some space (Nathan called it micro-volcada) for the leader. So, it is possible in apilado-CE. If you lead the fwd8 to the left at a lesser degree (f.i. in the ccw-molinete) it is fairly easy for you. But, if you want to lead the fwd8 ahead of you in the LOD-direction, it is (for me anyway) not possible to do it (without an opening of the hold) without breaking the followers backbone. So, in this case you have to dance liquido.

But why do you think so dogmatically about breaking the embrace? Dancing is fun, and I often dance parallel-apilado, salón-V, open, liquido, elastic, con luce, anyway everything mixed.
 
opendoor said:
But why do you think so dogmatically about breaking the embrace? Dancing is fun, and I often dance parallel-apilado, salón-V, open, liquido, elastic, con luce, anyway everything mixed.
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often its the followers option; some I know will keep a body connection on my RHS but roll their torso away ( do they get nipple friction I wonder?), then back and the foot returns to a cross in front. Others will stay glued and do fat-old-lady-ochos with small twist from the hips and a lot of crossing of the leg in front. Excellent for crowded milongas, but its all elastic; i will generaly open up a bit for vals..
 
opendoor said:
...If you lead a fwd8 to the (subjective) left side direction, it is possible, but requires a lot of dissociation for the follower and some space (Nathan called it micro-volcada) for the leader. So, it is possible in apilado-CE. If you lead the fwd8 to the left at a lesser degree (f.i. in the ccw-molinete) it is fairly easy for you. But, if you want to lead the fwd8 ahead of you in the LOD-direction, it is (for me anyway) not possible to do it (without an opening of the hold) without breaking the followers backbone. So, in this case you have to dance liquido.

But why do you think so dogmatically about breaking the embrace? Dancing is fun, and I often dance parallel-apilado, salón-V, open, liquido, elastic, con luce, anyway everything mixed.
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@Opendoor: I was not asking for advice. I know full well how to do it, and it's not difficult at all. I was wondering why some guys seem to twist their partners around in a way that seems unrewarding, if not unpleasant. I know there could be some erotic stimulation involved, as BTM suggested, and I have no problem with that, with the right partner.

Dogmatic? It's merely my preference.
 
explanation

AndaBien said:
@Opendoor: I was not asking for advice..
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Sorry Anda, but my english is still very rough, and I do not get all that subtle implications. :notworth:

AndaBien said:
.. if not unpleasant. I know there could be some erotic stimulation involved, as BTM suggested..
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Sorry for a 2nd time, but I do not understand this as well. Could you explain the movement more detailed. I have no idea what could be erotic at all. In apilado the upper bodies are fixed to one another, there is no movement at all. And hips and legs are far away from each other, on the other hand....


bordertangoman said:
.. but roll their torso away..
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Only bloody beginners do so? Once I danced with a beginner and, when doing 8s the buttons of my shirt and some buttons or decorations of her blouse got caught up, opend each other, and so, finally we were dancing... . We continued till the end of that piece and dance slowly in tight parallel hold to the curtain of a wardrobe, and cleared up that funny accident.
:-D​
 
AndaBien said:
. I know there could be some erotic stimulation involved, as BTM suggested, and I have no problem with that, with the right partner.

Dogmatic? It's merely my preference.
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I made no such suggestion....tango is about erotic as jumping into a bath full of cold custard...blues or even kizomba is more erotic...and tango music..about as much as the proverbial cold shower..except Pugliese of course...
 
bordertangoman said:
Others will stay glued and do fat-old-lady-ochos
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why on earth do you refer to crossing ochos as "fat old lady ochos"? People with fat thighs have more trouble with them than thinner women. Besides. they aren't just for FOL's. I am not fat, old and some might even question how much of a lady I am.

I hate to be touchy, but even using a term like "fat old lady" is pretty obnoxious even if it weren't so completely inaccurate. If there is such a thing as fat old lady ochos, they developed from the way fat old men led them, so enough with the insulting language.
 
AndaBien said:
I know full well how to do it, and it's not difficult at all. I was wondering why some guys seem to twist their partners around in a way that seems unrewarding, if not unpleasant.
Click to expand...

Because those guys DON'T know how to do it!

Around here there is almost no instruction in apilado, milonguero, or even a proper close embrace. People THINK they are dancing CE, but it's this odd version of CE where you aren't making solid chest contact, but you're too close to your partner to be open. The connection seems to be in the follower's left armpit and inner upper arm, but it's not a V embrace either. I don't know what it is or where it came from. It used to be that folks here danced either open or closed. (mostly open) Now many of them dance this weird hybrid.

I'm not a fan. :(
 
opendoor said:
Only bloody beginners do so? Once I danced with a beginner and, when doing 8s the buttons of my shirt and some buttons or decorations of her blouse got caught up, opend each other, and so, finally we were dancing... . We continued till the end of that piece and dance slowly in tight parallel hold to the curtain of a wardrobe, and cleared up that funny accident.

:-D​
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So, it was a kind of mutual unpeeling incident? I do hope so. I love your "rough English"!
 
Zoopsia59 said:
I hate to be touchy, but even using a term like "fat old lady" is pretty obnoxious even if it weren't so completely inaccurate. If there is such a thing as fat old lady ochos, they developed from the way fat old men led them, so enough with the insulting language.
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Quite so. Strange, also, how there are far more fat old men in tango than fat old women.

Zoopsia said:
Around here there is almost no instruction in apilado, milonguero, or even a proper close embrace.
Click to expand...
Here, neither. I can only recall having a lesson directly centred on close embrace once.
 
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