Dennis Simmons said:
borikensalsero said:
As we all know, mambo has its origins from rhythyms in cuba, so does its dance. However, when watching Eddie [Eddie Torres] dance, his dancing technique is way too close to Latin hustle as opposed to the son montuno, rumba style that was danced in the 50s and the 70s, where the main part of the dance was body movements, or as some say, body shines, as opposed to "stiffer" body with lots of limb movements. On the contrary those who took it to an art form knew that arm movement was very little except when needed to stress different beats of the music. (It is an illusion moving the arms, the movement of the arms is caused by the sway of the midsection causing the natural looking motion of the arms) Hence, why so many NY City dancers swing their arms faster than any one beat in the song. They have erroneously being taught that they need to move the arms that much. That is Eddies Style, moving of the arms and feet as opposed to waist/torso. Remember, the legs and arms follow the body not the other way around. Hence why leads are said to start with the chest/torso instead of the hands. That is the main difference... Afro Cuban movements that Eddie couldn't translate into his dancing techinque... Then bang, Eddie's style was born, which there is nothing even close to wrong. That is his style.
Well, in none of my posts have I commented on style. My comments have been directed solely to the matter of dance timing. There are three principal latin dance timings. They are SALSA, the most recent entry, breaking on counts 1 and 5 of the 8-count musical refrain with transition counts (no step) 4 and 8, MAMBO / SON MONTUNO (the "quick quick slow" version of rumba) breaking on counts 2 and 6 with transitions on counts 4 and 8, and SON (the "slow quick quick" version of rumba) breaking on counts 3 and 7 with transitions on counts 2 and 6. The dance timing that Eddie uses is the dance timing of mambo as it has come to us from Cuba, realizing, of course that the term "mambo" is strictly New Yorkese (demonstrating one more time that Americans have never met a fad that they didn't like). If you ask Cubans about mambo they will look at you funny because they most likely have never heard the term and they have never used it to describe the music and dance that they know as rumba.
The mambo shines that Eddie teaches and uses in performance have borrowed heavily from modern and jazz dance techniques (which I take as the object of your reference to arm and leg movement) and have nothing to do with Cuban dance styles. Neverthless, it is my understanding that they are based on the open dance format (man and woman side by side) used by couples in dance competitions in places like the Palladium. On the other hand, with respect to partner dancing, Eddie has consistently taught his students to carry their forearms close to the body and level with the floor at all times when not using them to execute leads. Other than a natural sway of the arms that follows counter to movement of the hips, all movement occurs from the waist down. Hip movement is not made conciously, but follows as a natural consequence of foot placement and bending of the knee at weight changes, all of which is amply demonstrated in his video instruction set. Eddie's dance style is unquestionably elegant and sophisticated, much closer to Fred Astaire than it is to the folk dance of Cuba. What is authentic is the dance timing that he employs. To confirm that, you need only to ask for instruction in "quick quick slow" rumba at any ballroom dance studio. Unfortunately, those folks have the impression that the dance timings of rumba are suitable only for elevator music. It hasn't occurred to them that those dance timings are equally at home with the rocket-powered tempos brought to us by Arsenio Rodriguez (in which case, of course, you haven't the luxury of stepping side to side).
My comments weren't made as a counter argument to you, nor to demean anything you had to say. They were just a clarification to the misleading belief that people have about eddie and mambo.
Thank you for the fill in on your knowledge. To further expand on the term Mambo. The only time that Cubans won't know what you are referring to when speaking of Mambo is by seeing any one of us dance Mambo. They don't equal our style of mambo to anything they do when they dance mambo. When you ask a cuban to dance Mambo theyll most likely dance on1 plus there is an addition of a hop to it, with a lot of rumba/son montuno motions. By asking a cuban, I don't mean the regular person down the street who has a dilluted version of what mambo was. But an Afro-Cuban dancer with his training coming straight out of cuba. The term Mambo was used in cuba to mean the entry section of a song which was used to let the musicans know that they were to all meet and start playing in conjuction. It was first added to the danzon. Son also used it because son was always played as improv so the muscians needed to know when they had to meet to either end the song as one or to meet for a solo, or what ever else they needed to do.
That part of of danzon known as mambo was then taken by Arsenio Rodriguez and Orestes Lopez and turned into the Mambo made popular by Perez Prado. First in Cuba, then in mexico, then with the influence of Jazz Perez Prado finally mastered his technique to eventually come to the Mambo known in the US in the 50s. So while the less musicaly savvy Cubans won't know what I'm talking about in Mambo, rumba movements will indeed be applied to the Mambo they dance. There is no choice here, the natural rhythmic movement a cuban posseses has its roots in Afro-Cuban movements, which are in full display in rumbas, and also in display in their Mambo dancing. Since mambo came after Rumba there was no known way of dancing to it in cuba so they did to it what they knew better and that was do their rumba like movements to a different style of music, until they perfected it to it's way of dancing it today. While mambo dancing as we dance it now has its origin in the US, it true movement form comes from Cuba.
Correct, as you have mentioned, there is no aimless arm swinging and leg swinging in Afro-Cuban dance. If you watch Eddie dance, his arms are very well moving way fast in all direction. Even in his basic step when done to a faster song his arms are moving very rapidaly. In women their shoulders are rolled way fast, another no-no in afro cuban rhythms. And to a surprise that is Maria's Style of dancing. Hmmm... Remember that Eddie is known for his speed in dancing not his smoothness. He is speed. Eddie teaches students to keep his arms "close to the body", where as in afro-cuban dance the elbows are to be pretty wide appart from the body. Why? To understand this we must know the Religious belief of the country, since these dances where indeed at first done to invoke the GODs, and as it is called Pa' Bajar los muertos or santos. These dances make use of energy, so the arms must be apart from the body to allow a greater flow of energy in and out of the body. Having the elbows/arms close to the body minimizes and can prevent the flow of energy. Since Eddie didn't know this when he started, and as others his time, could only learn by watching. He followed those who learned by watching others instead of being taught the why, and how of body movements and details in Afro-Cuban dance that are absent in his style. Again, nothing worng with his style, I am just talking about the differences. To further expand, the arms is what keeps the upper body balanced when moving, keeping them close to the body only prevents better balance when doing the crazy and fast movements. To no surprise when you are about to fall, the body hoping to balance it self, natrually swings the arms outward as far from the body and as fast as it can. In continuation, no one walks with their forearms close to ther body as is possible, they actually hang a couple inches away form the body. Why stop the natural flow of the body and force an un-natural movement by keeping the forearms as close as possible to the body? The easiest way to feel freedom of energy is by pulling the arms out, the chest expands and there is a sense of freedom, if you will. We all do the same when we lose breath, we try to get the chest as free as we can, again, the body naturally acting takes the arms and extends them as far as it can from the body hoping to lessen constriction caused by the limbs which are close to the body, when the body is asking for space.
Movement doesn't come from the waist down as it is mainsteamly believed. Movemet genrates from the mid section, from the stomach area. The highest concentration of energy is from a mother and a child in the womb, here as well is where movement comes from. An energy class will teach/prove the high concentration of energy around the stomach area and how that specific area starts the movement of the body. Ploymentrics do teaches the same. For example, before you even take a step foward, the stomach muscles tighten and force a slight bend of the back readying itself to lift the leg, and warning the body about extra weight coming because of the absence of one leg on the floor. So, NO, movement doesn't start with the waist down, but indeed some do finish there. It is a mistaken belief that mainly eastern hemisphere residents posses.
In all,Eddie style is further away from that of Rumba, son muntuno style which was prevelant by trained version of mambo dancing done at the palladium by afro-cuban dancers who took the movements to an folk/cuban artistic form, after all the dance had its first steps there. While the dance's origin is said to be American because of the blending of all types of styles, the original movements have Afro-Cuban flavor. While there was a lot of arm movement at the palladium it was mainly done by those who really never had an in-depth training of Afro-cuban movements. These movements as el Chapulin colorado would say, are friamente calculados, as out of wack as they might look to an onlooker, they are indeed done on purpose, from the head to the toes. As you have referred, Eddie's closest thing to original mambo with cuban-flavor dancing is the timing.
Remember, Salsa is a street beat, always was until 1982 when louie Ramirez did an album remake of Mexican Rancheras as Salsa in a "mockery" of how anything can be done as a Salsa. Too bad this was Salsa's most successful album. :cry: Sophistication and elegance was only done when other dance styles indulged even deeper into Salsa. Even more style on top of Mambo and the change in style of music played gave birth to Eddie's Style. There is no need for elegancy when salsa in the 70s was known for its ghetto tough mentality, ala Juanito Alimana. How well does a nice sophisticated dance go with it? It can go with salsa, however not the 70's street beat of salsa, which calls for a lot of improv, body movement, etc... At least in my opinion.
