Lanza Six Count Lindy

History Buffs,
'The Lanza Six Count Lindy' is NOT a dance; I have often stated it is a
unique 'Teaching Method' I developed while coaching Tennis for 12 years. I will 'once again' explain how it works and give you a demonstration on how effective a teaching tool it is by describing my original move called the, 'Savoy Slide' at the end of this Commentary.
When I used the word, Magic Pill' I was using a metaphor of sorts to
indicate its potent effectiveness. I prefer to call my Magic Pill, 'The
Lanza Six Count Lindy, a Teaching Method' because that is what it is, and if anyone thinks I was trying to invent a new dance, it is only because they have not bothered to read my Commentary on the thread, 'The Magic Pill Flyer' with due scrutiny, but merely perused the Commentary with a lack of comprehension.
And if I attach my name to this teaching method, it is to differentiate it from anyone else's 'teaching method', so that its integrity is not corrupted by any adulterations which would diminish the effectiveness of the Method.
Incidentally this exact teaching method is detailed in my Books, 'Strictly Swing' published in 1999 and 'Lindy by Lanza' published in 2000.
When I use the count, '1 &2, 3 &4, 5-6. I do so as to designate every cipher to a specific Lindy move. Forgive me if I get too detailed, but perhaps it will dispel confusions caused by careless critics.
The '1 &2' will always represent the 1st Triple, with the man always
starting on his left foot; the '3 &4' will always stand for the 2nd Triple
with the man starting on his right foot; and the 5-6 will always stand for
the Rock Step with the man starting on his left foot.
The Six Count method can be used to quickly and clearly analyze another dancer's complex moves at a glance because you can separate his moves into the segments, '1 &2, 3 &4, 5-6'.
To further demonstrate how to use this method effectively, I will copy from my book a movement I originated called the 'Savoy Slide' which is described on page 133, and I describe it without any illustrations, but simply using my six counts.
The move begins on the Rock Step (5-6) with the lady in the drag position, behind the man both facing forward: Both start on 5-6 with lady doing her Back Rock and she will continue as normally traveling forward toward the other end of the Slot while the Man does the following moves by the numbers which I call, 'The Savoy Slide':

MAN:
on 5 step forward on left foot with Lady still behind; do not pull Lady'
on 6 kick forward with right foot, start pulling Lady forward;;
on 1 pull right foot back and wide to his right side and behind lady,
on &2 crosses left foot in front of right foot,
on 3 slides both feet wide apart with weight on right foot,
on & shift weight onto left foot,
on 4 shift weight on right foot
on 5 Man's left foot is free to Rock in any direction,
on 6 steps on right foot in place.

This is one of my most complicated Lindy moves and it is simplified by
using, 'The Lanza Six Count Lindy', a teaching method'. And now you know why I call it Magic! ...The Magic Pill, that is!
Incidentally, 'The Six Count Lindy' is described in detail on pages 130 to
132 in my book published in 2000, 'Lindy By Lanza'.

Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.

Black Sheep said:

When I use the count, '1 &2, 3 &4, 5-6. I do so as to designate every cipher to a specific Lindy move. Forgive me if I get too detailed, but perhaps it will dispel confusions caused by careless critics.
The '1 &2' will always represent the 1st Triple, with the man always
starting on his left foot; the '3 &4' will always stand for the 2nd Triple
with the man starting on his right foot; and the 5-6 will always stand for
the Rock Step with the man starting on his left foot.
The Six Count method can be used to quickly and clearly analyze another dancer's complex moves at a glance because you can separate his moves into the segments, '1 &2, 3 &4, 5-6'.

Click to expand...

hello! Forgive me, I'm new here but I have done some reading in these threads. You seem very proud about your contributions. How is this different than the very basic east coast swing and how does this method of movement analysis apply to any 8 count move that is the basis of basic Lindy?

I have something to say about creativity vs. originality. First of all, I do not now or ever have claimed to be a fabulous dancer. I have formed my thoughts on the subject through my work in puppetry... a field which has greatly influenced my life and my approach to the arts as a whole. I also believe in the benefits of being a well rounded, or multi-fauceted artist so I believe that knowledge gained in one medium may be directly applicable to another. (for example, Tia Chi has done wonders for my puppet manipulation skills... but I degress)

Creativity (even in its purest form) often exists without originality. I remember a stand-up comedian saying it best, 'Archeologists have found proof that mankind has been creative for over three million [or was it billion?] years.... .... and I'm supposed to come up with new material!' No matter the creation, chances are it has been done before, sometimes documented, sometimes not. I have found that I have become significantly happier with my art when I strive for creativity instead of originality. I could go on with this idea but I think the concept is clear so I'll stop.

My point is that you seem very connected and prossessive of your ideas while sharing them at the same time... this perception is most likely due to the frequent references to copywrite and the gaurd against "adulteration" to your work in which you seem to have great pride-- that's pretty heavy language there-- perhaps that is merely my personal connotations. I thank you for sharing your thoughts and stories. While a truely creative process may have lead your teaching methodologies the more I read the less original they seem as a whole. Of course, in my mind, originality is never a goal nor something to aspire to-- I mean no offense. And since I can only speak from my point of view, I'll do just that. The fact that you do seem to only accept your own ideas and that in your commentaries I've read thus far you have seemed to 'glorify' yourself and not acknowledge valid points and contributions of others. This makes it difficult for me to trust what you say (I have a natural tendancy to question absolutes in any form).

Why not benefit from the format of a discussion forum?

Originality & creativity

Swing Kitten,
East Coast Swing, as I occasionally have seen it, is the closest to the New York Savoy Lindy that my teenage friends danced in the 1930's. Some of the characteristics, and I know the danger of 'Judging the many by the few', but the Lindy as I recall it in the 1930's in New York stressed smoothness of execution and was more spatial as apposed to a bunching up in the open positions and there were no eight count moves thrown into the Lindy (excepting for a short period when the Big Apple novelties was the craze) which they were assidously careful to stay on beat throughout the dance, which was one continuous rhythm, but aside from these dubious differences which I observed from a few ECS dancers, the Savoy Lindy is ECS!
As to originality, of course statistically we have to assume after three million or three billion years of mankind's existence, nothing is new.
As for taking 'Pride', that's not my favorite definition of my attitude, but I do take 'Credit', for devising a unique method of teaching the Lindy.
In my 12 years of teaching dance in Hollywood in the 1950's, and observing almost every teacher in Southern California teach groups for the past four years since 1999, I have never observed any of them using my Six Count Method as it was described in my publication which was sold at the Second Annual event of 'Camp Hollywood' at the Palladium in November 1999.
I can assure you, Swing Kitten that I have done my homework, and if I come off like I know what I'm asserting, that is due to my assiduously observing the teaching techniques of others these past four years, plus my 12 years of running the largest staff of dance teachers, often up to 12, at one time. And in addition, fifteen years as a tennis coach with only a dance background and a few pointers from professionals, I developed my own tennis techniques which are documented in three tennis books, and other several other teaching fields, I do have confidence in teaching. Although I have observed teachers using the
'1 &2, 3 &4, Rock Step' counting method they always mixed it in with their 'Triple Triple, 1-2' or started with the Rock Step as a 1-2, and never used the Six Count Method as a mechanical/Rhythmic Guide to teach or learn the Lindy. And there is the secret to my teaching method; The 'Lanza Six Count Lindy, a Teaching Method uses at 'Mechanical Rhythmic' count which I developed when teaching my uniquely different tennis techniques.
And there ARE people who are creative, and they are the few in this world while the great majority are copycats and imitators. But let me pull out of my memory a statement made by a celebrated artist, I believe it was Alexandre Dumas, and although I have to paraphrase, his statement might put to rest this idea of originality or creativity. An acquaintance once asked Dumas, ' But isn't what you do an imitating of what others in the past have done? (maybe he was inferring three million years of civilization) The artist replied, 'Perhaps these things have been done or said before, but what makes my work original is the order in which I arrange them and the original affect I thereby produce'!
Let me ask you Swing Kitten, 'Do you feel my Six Count Lindy teaching Method is a copycat or an out and out imitation of a teaching CODE, which my Mechanical/Rhythmic system actually is, since each cipher almost always stands for the specific weight change and a specific motion? And can you actually prove your allegations of my supposed plagerism by documenting your proof with a publication previous to my November 1999, 'Strictly Swing'?

Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.

Eight vs. Six Count Lindy

Swing Kitten,
If you count the number of steps in the 'triple Lindy', you do have '8;'
steps;
If you count the number of Quarter beats used in taking those
'Triple Lindy' steps then we have a 'Six Count Lindy'. I chose the Six with
the '&' Counts to better express the syncopation on the '&2, &4, and the 6 counts (the up beats) as an integral part of the dance.
I explain this '6 vs. 8' in my 1999 publication.
Excellent questions, Swing Kitten. You gave me the opportunity to answer those questions that were in many other minds I am sure. Thanks for your insightive critique.
Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.

It's always good to be able to find a friendly middle ground. Getting a little philosophical: We ALL have a limited view of the World. For that reason, it is so important to establish relationships that are based on growth and learning.

Swing Kitten,
Welcome . . . as you pass through . . .

Your response to Joe is certain another perspective on this topic, and well written if I might add. I can almost guarantee that it has been run into the ground, yet you have opened yet another view of it!

"DING," DING," "DING" . . . ROUND 2!

I guess my last post was a little goofy. :tongue:
But as you say, Vince, round 2 seems imminent (and we are NOT going to get personal).

I always thought that "Lindy Rhythm" is defined as 8 beats, either 1&2, 3-4, 5&6, 7-8 or 1-2, 3&4, 5-6, 7&8.

Can we just agree on calling it 6-count swing?

Whatever might have been common in the past, it's clear to me that "Lindy" almost always refers to 8-count swing presently.

Dance Mentor... I think it is telling that all documentation of Lindy Hop as done by the Savoy Lindy Hoppers shows one specific common move amongst them, the eight count move refered to as the Lindy Turn/Swing Out/Whip. All vintage film footage of competitions and performances, and all video tapes of those dancers teaching the dance since the 80's, and all current living Savoy dancers who are currently teaching, use this as the main pattern of which other patterns are executed from or are variations of.

While this has been brought up in just about every single thread that deals with lindy hop on this forum, it has never been adequately addressed. As a matter of fact I can only find it addressed at all once. The statement was to the effect that it was an 80's innovation and never a part of authentic Savoy Lindy Hop, yet both existing clips of Shorty George Snowden show this move and variations of it, and not one execution of the East Coast basic pattern that Joe describes in his method.

Re: Eight vs. Six Count Lindy

Black Sheep said:

Swing Kitten,
If you count the number of steps in the 'triple Lindy', you do have '8;'
steps;

Click to expand...

If I read correctly she was talking about eight counts, not eight steps. Since Lindy Hop is a jazz dance, it is based on jazz music, meaning syncopation and improvisation are necessary elements in order to dance the Lindy Hop. How many steps is executed within the pattern being lead/followed is not to important (though obviousely for beginners you wantto keep the footwork as simple as possible).

Black Sheep said:

If you count the number of Quarter beats used in taking those
'Triple Lindy' steps then we have a 'Six Count Lindy'. I chose the Six with
the '&' Counts to better express the syncopation on the '&2, &4, and the 6 counts (the up beats) as an integral part of the dance.
I explain this '6 vs. 8' in my 1999 publication.

Click to expand...

Joe there are only three upbeats in a six beat segment. The upbeats, also known as the weak beats which in jazz recieve rhythmic emphasis, are the even counts, the 2 and 4 in a one bar musical phrase.

How many steps is executed within the pattern being lead/followed is not to important (though obviousely for beginners you wantto keep the footwork as simple as possible).

Click to expand...

True, very true. Although I am not a Lindy dancer, this is true of all Swing dances. I only count in 8's, regardless of what my feet do. There are some patterns (oops, is this pattern dancing?) that I may only take two - four steps in (&1, &2) and get out of the way, yet this can get the follower through a 16 count pattern - obviously, I wouldn't do this move with a beginner, nor in a Jack and Jill, nor, if I felt the follower couldn't do it. So, how many steps IS NOT important!

Joe there are only three upbeats in a six beat segment. The upbeats, also known as the weak beats which in jazz recieve rhythmic emphasis, are the even counts, the 2 and 4 in a one bar musical phrase.

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100% correct!

Vince A said:

(oops, is this pattern dancing?)

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:lol: No Vince, the simple use of patterns is not what constitutes pattern dancing--its executing said patterns regardless of all external considerations such as: floor space & conditions; partner's ability & skill; your mechanics as a couple. Pattern Dancers, in short, let the patterns control them and dictate their movement rather then vice versa.

(P.S. See Vince? I told you there was life beyond the swing forum :tongue: )

SDsalsaguy,

I was "poking fun" at the other post that got into pattern dance, yet I see so many that do just this.

You mentioned the "floor space & conditions . . ."
That's how I had the top of my foot broken . . . the leader put a lady into a ronde' (did I spell it correctly?), she did, I went down after she took my foot out from under me . . . all on a large dance floor with maybe a thousand dancers on it. Barely enough room to do anything but dance in place and talk to your follower. I've learned from that experience!

(P.S. See Vince? I told you there was life beyond the swing forum )

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Ah yes . . . thank you again. I've been bravely sticking my yet-untrained Salsa mind out there . . . see other recent post!

Vince A said:

I was "poking fun" at the other post that got into pattern dance

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I noticed! Hence my: :lol:

Geez, your story points out that its not "just" bruises and lumps that result from such inconsiderate behavior. It also raises another interesting question though...to what extent does the follower have a responsibility not to execute various movements that are counter indicated by ambient conditions? If the woman you mention was a lower level beginner following her instructor, for instance, I could see it as entirely reasonable that she trusted and expected him to be responsible for such considerations. But a more experienced woman with a partner of equal or lesser ability?

Vince A said:

SDsalsaguy said:

(P.S. See Vince? I told you there was life beyond the swing forum )

Click to expand...

Ah yes . . . thank you again. I've been bravely sticking my yet-untrained Salsa mind out there . . . see other recent post!

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Yes I noticed...and just like the old Life cereal commercial suggested..."try it; you'll like it"

4 beats to the bar

Dear Music Teacher,
Thank you for explaining syncopation and where the up beats come on a bar of music. Although, I have to my musical credit 20 musical compositions +, including the theme song called, 'Camp Hollywood' and have completed an operetta with over a dozen songs including the harmonic chords, I appreciate any little information offered for my musical knowledge, especially about the up beats of the 2nd and 4th Quarter notes on a bar of music.
You have no idea how grateful I am for your erudite instructions on the construction of a bar of music because it gives me the opportunity to mention my completed Musical Project based on my experiences in the Swing environment of the 1950's in Hollywood. And I am now at the stage of financing this venture to go into production in 2004.
Thank you music Maestro for your critic. Hmm, '4 beats to the bar'. How clever?
I have a saying, "My critical adversaries are my best promoters."
Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.

I'm glad I could be of help. I wouldn't want someone to read your posts and judge the entire process of Lanza Six Count Lindy faulty because of a few mistakes regarding musical timing.

The method will be all the stronger, and people will be able to concentrate on the overall process than get caught up in the technical errors.