Leaders - how many fingers do you use in open hold?
- Thread starter huey
- Start date
DWise1
Well-Known Member
I assume that by "open hold" you mean the basic swing hand-hold. I haven't thought about it much, but I think that in Lindy I normally use three (index, middle, ring) and often in WCS I'll drop that down to two (index & middle) or even on rare occasion to one (index). It depends in part on the move and in large part on how heavy or light the follow is.
Darn it, now I'm going to be self-conscious about how many and which ones I use.
Darn it, now I'm going to be self-conscious about how many and which ones I use.
Vince A
Active Member
. . . from Victor Eijkhout:
2.1 On Hand Tone
In an Open hold, don't squeeze your partner's hands or crush her with your thumb.
Followers, a firm squeeze of your my partner's hand , arm or right shoulder can be used as a collision warning if he's about to back into someone else.
In any hand hold, partners should not grip one another tightly - The _general_ idea that I like the best for describing hand contact while dancing is to imagine that you are washing each other's hands. If I dance with a woman who hangs too much from me, or uses her thumb to grip me, I'll release all hold, put my hands on top of hers, and use only the skin friction to lead. I can do pushes and left and right passes this way without ever giving her the opportunity to apply the grip of death, if you know what I mean. The next-to-worst injuries I've received while dancing (the worst being stepped on with high heels) have been the results of tight grips... like a grip upon my thumb while my partner was trying to spin. Uh, my thumb - he don't revolve! Ever have a partner clamp down on your upper arm in closed dance position like she was as if hanging on for dear life or trying to pinch it off? Owww!!! It's hard to smile when you're wearing a tourniquet...
2.1 On Hand Tone
In an Open hold, don't squeeze your partner's hands or crush her with your thumb.
Followers, a firm squeeze of your my partner's hand , arm or right shoulder can be used as a collision warning if he's about to back into someone else.
In any hand hold, partners should not grip one another tightly - The _general_ idea that I like the best for describing hand contact while dancing is to imagine that you are washing each other's hands. If I dance with a woman who hangs too much from me, or uses her thumb to grip me, I'll release all hold, put my hands on top of hers, and use only the skin friction to lead. I can do pushes and left and right passes this way without ever giving her the opportunity to apply the grip of death, if you know what I mean. The next-to-worst injuries I've received while dancing (the worst being stepped on with high heels) have been the results of tight grips... like a grip upon my thumb while my partner was trying to spin. Uh, my thumb - he don't revolve! Ever have a partner clamp down on your upper arm in closed dance position like she was as if hanging on for dear life or trying to pinch it off? Owww!!! It's hard to smile when you're wearing a tourniquet...
I always use a "pistol grip" with index finger extended straight out, thumb up and not touching anything, and middle, ring and little fingers forming the hook. Thus although I nominally contact with only three fingers, the index finger can be placed along side her hand to provide additional lateral guiding if required.
Swingolder
New Member
As a follower, I am asking, have you leaders ever been guilty of that death grip? And how does a follower let you know that it hurts? Pull my hand away? wiggle my fingers (if possible)? say "that hurts"?
Well, that's more or less the position that prompted this thread. I was shown it by a California-based teacher called Andrew Sutton last weekend for the first time (he actually used 2 fingers - the middle one and the fourth). Last night I was alternating between 3 fingers and 4 fingers. Still haven't decided which I prefer. All the other leaders I observed last night used 4.Doug said:
You mean gripping much too hard? I am sure I have. I think it usually shows fear and inexperience, and should be expected by anyone who dances with inexperienced dancers.Swingolder said:
What should a follower do when she feels this and it's hurting? I suppose you could say 'my hand hurts when we grip like this, could we do it like this?' I might do the same if I feel pain with a follower. Saying it in a friendly way is usually best :wink:
Vince A
Active Member
I would say just say it . . . I used to have a bad habit of using my thumb, with very slight pressure on the back of the followers hand. One of my "Hustle" coaches told me about it everytime I danced with her and I used my thumb. It ook a good month or so to break me of that. But she just very politely mentioned 'the thumb.'
Flat Shoes
New Member
I use the pistol grip too. Once I was shown it, I've never gone back. Don't ask me why, just feels natural.huey said:
How many of the fingers I use, I've never thought about. The grip is in the middle finger and the forth. What I do with the little finger, I think is irrelevant.
When it gomes to hard grips, I have on a couple of occasions been told to easy up on the thumb. But this is mainly when 'holding hands' in class. I don't squeeze while dancing (I think).
I think of using 4 fingers as dancing with mittens on, and I think does promote the occasional use of the thumb on the back of the follow's hand to provide additional control. Using 2 or 3 fingers in the hook with the index finger along the side of the follow's hand, and not part of the hook, creates a much more flexible and dynamic hand connection that I feel allows me considerable control and precision without any grippiness to the connection.
One of the teachers I've taken classes for pointed out that quite often, the follower has a part in this too. If the leader feels that her hand is very loose and could slide off more or less any second, he might unconciously try to hold her hand in place. In addition to telling him about it, it could be a tip to give him a little bit more solid feeling in the hand.Swingolder said:
I use all five. That is after all what they are there for. The key is surface tension. The more surface we have touchiong the more information that is transmitted both ways. Now the main part of the energy is derived from the middle two fingers, but the index and little finger both provide sensitivity and assist in control. I also use the sides of certain fingers as well as the palm. The more surface the more better, but the "power fingers" if you will are the middle two. Depending on the size of your follows hand you may be forced to have a few fingers hanging in the air... but becareful about the pistol grip, or any other grip that puts the index finger along the side of the followers hand... Most leaders fingers are long enough that in this place an uncomfortable amount of pressure can be applied to the followers hand from the side that can cause wrist pains.
swinginstyle
New Member
I typically use four fingers. The thumb is there, but not to active, meaning I'm not applying pressure with it. My middle finger and ring fingers are the main ones I used, but I have found that a deep four finger grip is best. Paul Overton also mentioned that this minimizes use of your forearm.
tsb
Well-Known Member
Flat Shoes said:
i think part of it is that:
- we can increase the clarity of the lead by how we use the index finger along the side of her hand;
- if our arms are poised like we're pointing our finger like a gun barrel, our natural inclination is to keep our hands near waist level, which eliminates one common beginner error in holding our hands too high;
- i feel like i have a more fluid range of motion in wrist rotation (like looking at my watch) with an extended index finger vs. a closed fist;
- except in the case of extreme beginners who tend to do the death grip around the middle & ring fingers, all it takes is a slight nudge downward with my thumb on the base of her middle finger to prompt the follower to reshape her hand into a mutually comfortable grip if she initially curls her fingers into more of a fist;
that's where i hang my tea bag.
in normal hold my thumbs do not make contact; i tend to use the thumb primarily in 'compliance' technique:
- to prompt my partner to shift her grip because it's currently uncomfortable for me;
- i'm trying to influence her wrist to rotate to prompt her to straighten her arm (kind of an aikido technique);
- i'm trying to influence her wrist to rotate to prompt her to minimze her body movement - example: if she's taking a HUGE rock step, i try to move the hands apart as far as possible & point her palms downward to minimize her range of motion. this is also effective in salsa.